Overview
I’m so honored that Jen Grant Holland, Special Agent and Chief of Civilian Talent Acquisition for the Air Force Office of Special Investigations (AFOSI) joined me for an informative conversation about her extensive career in law enforcement and her advice for aspiring Special Agents. The conversation ranged from the types of projects that they support at the AFOSI, the training involved, and how to standout as a candidate applying to join her organization.
Big Ideas from This Episode
- OSI agents get the opportunity to work on a broad range of felony level criminal investigations and counter intelligence investigations. Examples include investigating violence, drug trafficking, sex offenses, fraud of military technology, espionage, terrorism, technology transfer, hacking, and force protection.
What’s unique about OSI is that it’s made up of active duty enlisted agents, officer agents, and civilian agents.
Within the OSI there are many specialized areas such as polygraph examiners, cyber forensics, close protection, and more. The OSI has training tracks / programs to develop their agents for specialized tasks. - Advice for those interested in federal law enforcement:
(a) Don’t hyper focus on one career path or one agency! Instead, be open to the smaller agencies or NGOs or corporations that have a mission that appeals to your interests. Get out there and get experience in internships so that you can see first hand how you enjoy (or don’t enjoy) those roles.
For instance, the OSI and NCIS have internships that can give you an opportunity to test the waters.
(b) Get experience by participating in an internship that is directly applicable to federal law enforcement, such as internships in law enforcement or the intelligence community (or at least an internship relating to international relations).
(c) Make yourself stand out from the other 3,000+ yearly applicants by:
– Completing a difficult degree program (science, technology, mathematics, etc.)
– Demonstrate your career and leadership potential by your actions (e.g. leading in sports or extracurriculars, studying a language, showing a progressive increase in responsibilities in jobs, etc.)
– Demonstrate well roundedness
(d) When writing your resume for a federal role:
If there’s something interesting about you, put it on your resume! And remember, federal resumes are encouraged to be 4 to 5 pages because items must be in writing on the resume to get “credit” for them in the interview process. - Career Tip 1: You have to promote / advocate for yourself in the workplace. Tell your boss what to notice, how you’re contributing to the mission of the organization, and how your projects are succeeding.
- Career Tip 2: Take advantage of LinkedIn as a networking tool. There’s great information about career opportunities on LinkedIn coming from all the agencies. Also, check out virtual career fairs that the DoD agencies are attending.
- Fun Fact: You must be 37 years old or younger (to apply for all federal law enforcement careers). However, veterans may be able to get an age waiver. Which means, one could easily have a career in the military or in corporate security, then pursue a federal LE career.
RESOURCES MENTIONED
– Air Force Office of Special Investigations Official Website
– Read more about AFOSI’s various career paths.
> Enlisted Careers: https://www.osi.af.mil/OSI-Careers/Enlisted/
> Officer Careers: https://www.osi.af.mil/OSI-Careers/Officers/
> Civilian Careers: https://www.osi.af.mil/OSI-Careers/Civilians/
> Reservist Careers: https://www.osi.af.mil/OSI-Careers/Reservist/
– Author, Malcolm Gladwell
Use CONTROL + F to search the transcript below if you want to learn more!
Transcript from this episode (#4)
*Note: this transcript was generated using automated software, and my not be a perfect transcription. But I hope you find it useful.
Travis 0:00 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the security student podcast... Jen, I'm excited to chat with you. As listeners know, from some of my recent podcasts, I've interacted with a ton of my peers in corporate investigations. But you being on the public side is something completely less familiar with me. So I'm excited to chat and learn from you. And welcome to the show. Jen 1:18 Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here as well. Travis 1:22 Thank you, it's an honor. So to get things started, I wanted to ask, could you share a bit about your role with the Air Force Office of Special Investigations? Jen 1:34 Yes, absolutely. So like you said already, I'm a special agent, with the Air Force Office of Special Investigations. And we service both the Air Force and the Space Force. So we're part of the Department of the Air Force. And that's just a recent development, as you know, with the addition of the Space Force. So I'm the chief of civilian talent acquisition, for our agency, and we're headquartered at the Quantico base in Virginia. And we're there because actually, all of the military criminal investigative organizations are there, and CIS, which is the Naval Criminal, investigative, CID, which is the army version. So I work on developing and implementing our recruiting strategy for our agency, and then the strategic marketing campaign, that we have to attract diverse pool of candidates and talent. Travis 2:33 When you're talking to people that are potential recruits or candidates, and they ask you, Hey, so what's, what does a typical? What might a typical day look like for someone who's a special investigator? What do you tell them? Like? Are there certain types of projects or types of tasks that they could expect to, to be involved in? Jen 3:02 Sure, yeah. So Office of Special Investigations, is the felony level investigative service and the counter intelligence agency for the Air Force. So we do for the Air Force what the FBI does for the American people. And so anything that is a felony level crime, meaning you're gonna get a year in jail, or more, we investigate for the Air Force. In addition to our counterintelligence mission, I'll go into the criminal investigations just a moment, in addition to the counterintelligence mission, which is collecting threat information that will affect our Air Force and our airmen or facilities. And I can go into that a little bit more in depth. So on the Criminal Investigative side, kind of the common things that we see in the Air Force and we're just really a microcosm of America, right. So there's not anything very specific to military members that we're investigating. But you know, sexual assault, rape, murder, drug use drug trafficking, different sex offender offenses, Child child sex, assault, fraud, large procurement fraud, with acquisitions of big military technology, and systems. And then on the counterintelligence side, right, we have espionage investigations, as well as terrorism, technology transfer, computer infiltration, computer hacking, that kind of thing. And in a terrorism type investigations, and then we provide a number of other force protection activities. So we'll go out and talk to security services, meaning local police officers and or intelligence organizations wherever we are getting that information, providing it to the commanders of the base or the forces there, so they can make good decisions. And, you know, oversight is unique, right? Because we are located wherever they are forces around the world and every Air Force base there is. So it's quite complex, in terms of investigating different crimes with local nationals. Often things happen off base if you're stationed in Germany or in Japan. So I think that day to day can be very different. You know, one day you might be talking to someone about a terrorist threat to the base, and trying to gather more information to make sure our troops are safe. And the next day you might be working on a a sexual assault case, maybe an airman was attacked while they were doing something. And so, day to day, it is very different, which is one of the things I love about the job. And I would say, you are talking to people collecting information. And really our job is to collect the facts, right, and get those facts down on paper so that the right people can make decisions in terms of discipline or prosecution. Travis 6:27 I see. Wow, that's so cool that you get to work across so many disciplines, like you mentioned, technology, of course, investigating like incidents of violence or drug trafficking, protecting information. That's, that's really cool. And next, I was curious to learn for you. What did your career path look like leading up to where you are today? Jen 6:50 Yeah, absolutely. So I came into this agency almost 20 years ago. So it's been a long road, but so all special agents go to school at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center for .... Down in Georgia, we get trained to be agents, everything you need to know from how to shoot a gun to add an interview someone collect evidence. We did that. And my first assignment was that in Kota, Japan, so I was there doing mostly counterintelligence at that base, which was fantastic. I moved on. And did I move to the criminal investigative task force out of Fort ..., Virginia. And they were charged with prosecuting the detainees held in the War on Terror saw the detainees down at Guantanamo. We were building cases to go to trial. So I had that assignment. Travis 7:49 Can I pause you for one second? I was curious. So working in these different roles. And since it's in Air Force, does that require you to go to like, does that require one to go through the Air Force? Enlisted like recruit recruit training or Officer Candidate School? Do you have to go through those types of military schools before you move on to those investigative roles? Jen 8:14 Oh, yeah, let me clarify that part. So no, so I'm a civilian agent. And OSI is unique. And I probably should have mentioned this first. So we're different from other agencies in that we have both civilian agents and military agents working side by side, they're both federally, they're all federally credentialed. But they come, they come through differently. So our active duty members do go through basic training. Our enlisted members actually have to go into career field first, something else, they're not allowed to come right into OSI. So they might go into aircraft maintenance or another thing, and then they would cross train into OSI. Our officer agents can come right in, right out of college, they'll apply and come to OSI and then our civilian agents apply through the normal means USA Jobs for entry level position, and come into the organization. So I'm a civilian agent. And while I didn't do all that original basic training, you do as a civilian working for the Air Force, you do go through a number of military, similar military courses. So a lot of the professional military education, upgrade training and you go to the same as our military members. Travis 9:40 I see that's, that's really interesting. Yeah. For me, I was totally unfamiliar with how, like how the interaction was between people who are enlisted officers, civilians. So that's, that's really interesting to learn about. Yeah, of course. Okay, so I sorry, I'd cut you off. You were at the point where you You, you mentioned being involved in investigations when it came to, like detainees, that type of thing. Jen 10:06 Yes. So I worked at the stuff where we investigated detainees in Guantanamo Bay. So that involves interrogating detainees. But that we were using report based techniques. So separate from the interrogators, I think that made the news report based techniques mean, just means talking to someone in a friendly way to build rapport between the two of you and ask questions, rather than the more harsh kind of negative fashion of interrogation. So I did that for a few years. Then I deployed overseas and I went to ... airbase in Qatar for a year. And while I was there, kind of deployed forward to a number of locations, so I am a civilian. But in OSI we give civilians the opportunity to volunteer for deployment. So if you want to do something with our military members, like I said, we kind of all do the same thing. So along with our active duty members, I was I went for to Iraq and Afghanistan in a role there as a liaison officer, so that was fantastic. And never thought that I would do anything like that. And then after that, I, I got the opportunity to lead my own office. So in RAF Alconbury, in the United Kingdom, went there, I was in charge of eight people, we covered kind of the western side of the island, there are a number of Air Force bases, small ones there. And doing the same thing we would do as an agent, right, investigating all of those felony level crimes. And we did quite a bit of counterintelligence due to some foreign influence in the area. Then I moved on and actually moved to our internal investigations section in OSI which, hands down was my favorite. Because you not because we're investing you investigate your own agents, right? We want to make sure the reason I liked it is because, you know, we all take pride in being an OSI agent. And so when someone is not acting as they should, or has done something, you know, maybe didn't know there's a fraud situation or, you know, domestic situation at home, you know, we want to make sure that our agents are above reproach, right, and that they can testify in court with no issues. And so I took pride in being able to help OSI kind of maintain that level of standard within our own organization. So after that, I was able to go in and do some of our career field management. And so for us, that's kind of managing people's careers, their assignments, their additional education, training, specializing in certain things, because we do have a number of specialties in OSI. So once you're an agent, you learn to do criminal investigations, counterintelligence investigations, but you also then can specialize in things. And so we have people specialize in polygraph. We have people that do cyber investigations, forensic forensics, cyber forensics, we have people to do like a secret service, AES commission with our top our senior leadership in the Air Force. And so we would help these folks kind of get the additional training they need and get them specialized and certified in those areas so that they can then work cases associated with that. Travis 14:00 Yeah, that's really cool. So you got to work with? Well, I guess it would be it would be younger agents and senior agents kind of helping guide them through their career, seeing what their interests are. And for an agent that wants to work in a particular niche, like let's say someone is really fascinated with information security and like fraud when it comes to protected information for someone that wants to work in an in some kind of niche. How do they go about doing something like that? Is it kind of like when you initially become an agent? It's kind of like the needs of the department, or can they scan some specialized when they first come into the department? How something like that Jen 14:43 work? Yeah, sure. So so the way we look at it is an agent is an agent, and a lot of the other agencies do the same. So FBI and NCIS you know, we are training you to be a federal agent. With our agency, and so you go to that training edge letsie that we talked about to learn how to be an agent. And we kind of give you all those initial skills, we have a probationary period of 18 months, where you learn to do, you know, interviewing and collecting evidence, all those things, more on the criminal side. Because sometimes in the counterintelligence side, that those stakes are a little higher. And then, during the 18 month process, we have a couple of conferences and some program managers who assess our new folks and kind of reach out to them. So you can talk to them about what your preferences, we typically don't force anyone into anything that they don't want to do. So if you raise your hand and said, Yeah, you know what, I have a background in cyber forensics. And I would like to get a little more information, I'd like to go into that field, that program manager, then talk to you assess your resume and get you into the right training track. Travis 16:05 I see. Yeah, that's very cool to have so many different, like, diverse opportunities available. And also, I was curious to learn, were there any particular influences that kind of got you on the path towards becoming a special special agent? Like, what influenced you along the way? Jen 16:24 Yeah, I mean, I, for myself, I don't have to say, you know, I probably was always interested in security studies. I lived in Europe when I was in high school. And so I was always different kind of interested in in different cultures. And I went to school for international relations. But I would say hands down, you know, 911 happened in the fall of my senior year, after 911, I think everybody was kind of, and I was I was working on my degree at American and international relations and foreign policy with a concentration on the Middle East. And I think at that time, everybody who had kind of a sense of service was it was kind of looking for things like how can I be of help? Or how can I get involved and make an impact? And so I think that kind of guided me as I was trying to find my path after I graduated. Travis 17:21 I see. And I could definitely relate to that. I think I might have already mentioned on the podcast before, but me and I think a bunch of the bunch of the Marines that I've worked with, especially those that are in the same age cohort, I think all of us joined the Marine Corps pretty much because 911 happened when we were in what fifth sixth, seventh grade? So yeah, I think that had a dramatic impact on on so many people when it comes to working in government and working in security. And so that's a giant influence. Next, this is the fun part. So for aspiring professionals that are interested, that are interested in becoming an agent, with the, with the Air Force Office of Special Investigations, how could they get started? Or how could they prepare for a career with your organization? Jen 18:13 So my top piece of advice, when I get asked this question is not to hyper focus on one career path or one agency, be open to the smaller agencies who have a mission that you like, or peripheral mission, or an NGO or private sector, and just get out there and work and see what you like, paid unpaid full time, part time internship, get that experience on your resume, it's going to help you make that decision. Sometimes you don't realize you're not gonna like something until you get you get there. I remember when I was in college I was interning at on Capitol Hill, I thought maybe I wanted to be a congressional staffer until I realized how boring it was. You know, sometimes you just don't know. And I run into a lot of students who turn into like perpetual students, because they're just like, I'm not really sure I'm gonna go after this masters or that masters. When reality resumes read so much better when we're looking at them, if you've kind of reached out and tried to do a couple internships. So getting a little bit of experience, just dipping your toes in, and it'll help you to figure out like, is this quite right for me, like, you know, and you may look into criminal investigations are counterintelligence. And thank you know, what you don't like, you know, the schedule is crazy, right? weekends, evenings, that's not for me, you know, like, I want time to have a family and this and that. So my biggest piece of advice is not to get too focused on one thing, some people say like, I want to work for the FBI or I want to work for the CIA and get, you know, look around for different pieces of that and apply everywhere. Travis 19:57 Yeah, and you mentioned internships are there Are any particular internships that you think kind of line up with the role of a special agent? Jen 20:09 Sure, yeah. So So I mean, OSI offers internships as does NCIS. So we look for internships in anything law enforcement, or anything in the intelligence community is kind of where we look that really kind of gets the most not points or anything but the most attention. So anything intelligence community related, anything law enforcement related? And if you can't do that anything international relations, where you're dealing with different cultures, security services, that type of thing. Travis 20:48 Okay, yeah, that's really interesting. And that kind of lines up with probably a lot of the skills and like competency areas that some of my past guests have talked about when it comes to, like doing corporate investigations or working in corporate security. Like, are there any particular skill areas or competencies that you think make someone an excellent agent, like someone that stands out, among others? Jen 21:13 So there's, it's interesting, right? You, you kind of are trying, it's hard when we're looking at a resume of college students to see their potential, right. And so we look for things that might show potential, right? Good GPA, generally, right? Like you put some effort into your grades. means like, you might have a good work ethic, right? Pretty intelligence. difficult courses are difficult degree, we do give credit to that. So we do PC people with criminal justice, right? And that might not be as difficult, as you know, cyber security or cyber networking, right? So we do look at that we look at whether someone has done more than that. Right? So like, are they have they shown some leadership potential? Have they been the captain of the debate team or captain of the varsity team? Have they taken on big projects, and put that on their resume, or taking the initiative to you know, learn a language in depth, or, you know, if they had to work during college, that's fine, too. But just show us that, you know, you took the time to work, and maybe, you know, progressed, you know, and we can see that on your resume, right that like one year you were a part time associate, and the next year you were the lead associate, we can see that you progressed on your resume. So we do look for those types of skill, and then just general well rounded. We get over 3000 resumes for our positions. And things, if you are very specific with your resume, and only put things on there that you think we're going to be interested in. Sometimes they end up looking cookie cutter just like everybody else's. So if you have something interesting that you've done, that's interesting about you put it on there, federal resumes are encouraged to be four to five pages long. We don't encourage the one page so there's room if you were kept on the bowling team, put it on there. It might catch someone's attention is looking at resumes. And just think of you as a whole person concept. Travis 23:24 Right? Yeah, that reminds me of a conversation. I was talking with someone. This was like when I was still in like junior college, I was talking to one of my mom's friends who was like a DHS agent. And I was talking to him about like different degree programs. And he was like, Don't do criminal justice. Don't do what everyone else does do something that looks different. So that when someone looks at your resume, they think you're Yeah, like you said, it's not something cookie cutter, you're you're involved in some discipline that's that sets you apart from others. So do you might be able to make a more unique contribution? Jen 23:57 Oh, couldn't agree more? Yes. Yes, we look for accounting, we look for cyber, some language. So criminal justice does end up looking just like everyone else. So yes, couldn't agree more. Travis 24:12 And another thing I'm curious about, is there any, like there must be physical requirements or like physical testing to be an agent? Or Or am I am I off? Jen 24:24 Yes. So we do not do it. So those two things, right, there's, there's kind of a physical that you need to do. We actually have a form and you have to do it with your own doctor just to make sure that you don't have any issues that would cause a problem later. You have good vision and good hearing can pick up you know, heavy weights, you know, all those things could run if you had to. So there's a physical and then there's a physical, our physical fitness and so we do that down at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. They that They do that testing for us. We have a school house of instructors that are OSI agents. And once you get down there, it's it's not too difficult. But you know, it's a short run and push ups and sit ups and that kind of thing. Yes. Travis 25:18 And then what about? Are there any things that would disqualify someone such as like age requirements? Is there like an age cutoff? Where, if you're like me, if you're in like your early or mid 30s? Do you have to get like a waiver? So what types of like what types of things might disqualify someone from being from being considered? Sure. Jen 25:40 So you have to be 37 years old or younger, to apply. And that's just a federal law. So it's not for all federal law enforcement agencies. And that's just due to kind of the definition of a rigorous law enforcement position, they believe that you need to be 37 years old or younger, to be able to, to run and chase bad guys and all that kind of thing. If you had to, the only time you can get a waiver for us is if you are a veteran, often, if you have the right skills, and maybe you're just a little bit above 37, sometimes will pursue a waiver for you. Travis 26:21 I see. That's really cool. So someone could really, some could probably work for 10 years in corporate security, corporate investigations, corporate Intel, and then actually be able to be able to transfer over as a special agent, potentially. Yes, Jen 26:36 yeah. Absolutely. Travis 26:38 That's really cool. And, also, are there any other like, immediate disqualifiers that people should be aware of, if they're considering applying. Jen 26:48 So I mean, you have to have, you know, good vision doesn't have to be perfect and be good hearing. Generally, and no, you know, ailments that cause you having to be, you know, like, a few things like diabetes, where you have to have medications have to be refrigerated. Because a lot of OSI, you know, investigations, you're, you know, working in the field, you might not have access to certain facilities for a while, you may have to travel overseas. Or like I said, I mean, there may be a mission or something going on in another country, and you might not have those medications or access to the healthcare. So generally good physical condition. The only one other thing that could disqualify you that's a personal choice, though, is ability to be mobile. So we do move our agents around similar to FBI, to different positions within the States and overseas. So if you're, you know, tied to one place due to whatever reason, family or children, OSI might not be the place for you, because we do need our agents to move around. Travis 28:02 I see. And another thing I wanted to ask was, so over the years, are there any particular books that you found yourself recommending the most to whether it's like potential candidates or whether it's some of your peers who are also agents, so books that you've recommended over the years the most? Jen 28:21 So my favorites, I really like the mountain Malcolm Gladwell, his whole series, probably about talking to strangers, outliers. So you know, it's a it's a psychological look, I think. And he talks a lot in there about counterintelligence and security, as some of his examples. Cited recommend that very good reads. Travis 28:44 Yeah, I love Malcolm Gladwell. I've an all his books are an audio two, which, which I love cuz I'm like an Audio fiend on Audible. And then also, I was curious to ask about, are there any bad recommendations that you hear people giving agents like I can think of over the years, like, I've heard so many people, when they talk about military training, like, Oh, if you go to any of these military schools, you want to never volunteer? You don't want to stand out? Like they give bad advice like that. But is there any bad advice that you hear people give? Like, people like candidates or or new agents that can be avoided? Jen 29:22 I mean, I would say two things. First, the one page resume, just forget it, if you're going to apply to be an agent or anything in the federal government, we encourage a four to five page resume. And the reason why is because when it goes through processing, to get certified as qualified for the position, technically, we can't give you credit for anything unless it's written in on your resume. If you say an interview doesn't matter has to be on the resume for you to get credit and certify at a certain grade level. So forget the one page resume. But the other thing is And this is both sides of it a supervisor and just a worker bee, I hear all the time people saying, you know, keep your head down, do your work, you're gonna get noticed or just do a good job wherever you are, don't worry about being promoted. And I hear in law, that's true, you should do a good job, wherever you are, you're not necessarily going to get noticed just by doing a good job. And so sometimes you have to tell people what to notice. And there's like an element of self promotion there that you have to commit to. Because you can't always rely on the perfect boss, the perfect boss is going to notice you. And they're gonna put you in for a promotion and put you in for awards and that kind of thing. But that is not, we don't always get the perfect boss. So you know, there are people do, they don't always know what you're doing and keeping track of so i My personal recommendation to people is, tell them what to notice, keep track of your own accomplishments, even if it's just a weekly log of the things you've done that week. So when the appraisal time comes around evaluation time, you know, here are all the really big things. And this is how it contributed to the good of the entire agency, and be your own promoter. Because sometimes it just isn't going to work, like you think it is, if you kind of keep your mouth shut. Travis 31:21 Yeah, that's an excellent point. And that goes along perfectly with anything on the corporate side, too, it's like, you definitely need to go out of your way to have more meaningful interactions with bosses, even if that means like, the company doesn't automatically schedule these meetings, you just have to go out of your way and set up meetings to get more face time with them, share with them, the projects you're working on, maybe like your future plans within the organization, how you want to develop professionally. And then also super helpful if you can also develop maybe negotiation skills. Like I've read one really interesting book a while ago, it was never split the difference. It was a negotiation book by a FBI hostage negotiator, super interesting book, but also it had so many really interesting points to just general communication and negotiations in the workplace. So yeah, I really love that advice. Jen 32:20 Yeah. I agree with you as well, the negotiation. I love that. Travis 32:24 Yeah. And I also wanted to dive in and ask you a bit. I noticed you also worked as an instructor or like an adjunct faculty member for some strategic security programs. Could you share a little bit about what your experience was like working in these roles? Jen 32:43 Yeah, absolutely. So I worked as an adjunct instructor at two different colleges or three different colleges. Working in I did strategic security was one course and at Valdosta University, and I did counterterrorism counterintelligence at another university, and a few other courses. But yeah, I really, I really enjoyed my time. You know, it does take a little bit of effort, especially you have another full time job, too. But I'll tell you, what I really, really enjoyed about I think that some of the students that I had just had such a curiosity for learning. And I feel as though I don't know if you feel the same way. But as you go on in your career, you know, you're the end of it. People just aren't as curious and interested all the time. And so there's a certain enthusiasm that comes with brand new to something, and then you're learning it, you're like, Oh, this is so interesting, and almost like gives breathes new life into us old folks who've been doing it for a while. And so I felt like I really enjoy that. And also like, it's really, you know, current topics, right? It's not boring old medical journals and psychological exam, right? We're talking about current events, what's going on in the world today? And I think that's a real value. Travis 34:10 I see. That's very cool. Yeah, it forces you to examine more current topics probably challenges a number of assumptions that we've developed over the years. And then yeah, also just a cool way to give back to the community because I see people doing similar work on the corporate security side that go work with local, local universities that have security studies, programs or criminal justice programs, to help them kind of like further develop those programs so that they're more consistent with the skills needed to to succeed in a corporate environment, not just working on the public side. So really cool way to give back as well. Yeah, as we wrap up the interview, I wanted to ask, is there any, any final words that you want to share with people who might be a aspiring, aspiring special agents and maybe how they could how they could find more resources? Jen 35:08 I would say, you know, and I think we've talked about this, but LinkedIn is such a valuable resources, I think students don't take advantage of it right, because you're just at a college, you don't really have a network yet. But I've found, I find so much information about opportunities and careers. On LinkedIn. That's, that's put out there. Oh, as I you know, has we have a website just likes a lot of the other agencies that provide information, I really recommend, even if you have just five friends and one of them is, you know, your your parents or something like that. You can get on LinkedIn and kind of explore the different options and agencies and try and learn. As well as the other thing I would encourage too, is there's so many virtual career fairs, that now you're not limited to just your college. I look around at these and we attend a lot of them. There's there's a number I just saw one recently called a hire-athan. It's a computer programming marathon. And they've invited all the DoD agencies to go there and recruit. So look for things that are virtual recruiting events, and try to attend those as well. Travis 36:25 I see yeah, those are some great resources for people to check out. Yeah. So Jen, I am super grateful for you sharing your time today to chat. I wrote down a bunch of notes as we were chatting. And ironically, I feel like so so much of the advice you gave today, and the things you shared relate back to corporate security. So I think, really, there's a lot of crossover for young professionals, whether they're seeking work in the Air Force Office of Special Investigations, or whether they want to go work for like IBM or one of those organizations. So it's really cool to, to hear so much interesting info from you that spans kind of across across fields. So yeah, I'm super grateful, Jen, and thank you for sharing your time with me today. Of course, Jen 37:12 thank you so much for having me. And Travis 37:15 that concludes today's episode. Remember, show notes from today's chat can be found online at the security student.com which includes a transcript, links to resources mentioned, and a quick summary of big ideas we touched on today. Final note, if you're finding my podcasts useful, and you want to help me in a very meaningful way, please go to the Apple podcasts app and write a quick review stating why you love the podcast.