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Show Notes: Mastering Storytelling and Presence for Security Leaders with Dr. Elizabeth Goins PhD | Episode #43

Travis

Overview

#043 – Dr. Elizabeth Goins is a leading communication expert specializing in executive coaching, consulting, and training worldwide. Her highlights include a Ph.D. in Organizational Communication & Technology from The University of Texas at Austin, researching narratives for complex tech, regulations, and policies in oil and gas. She advanced via a post-doc at a cybersecurity think tank, translating engineering research for political and public audiences. With 4,000+ coaching hours, 10 years teaching, and 400+ trainings, including Rhetoric of Oil and Leadership Coaching at undergrad/MBA levels, she advises on strategic messaging, energy policy, and stakeholder engagement.

Today, we explored her Pineapple Strategies work, empowering security professionals in storytelling, executive presence, and AI-era adaptation.

Connect with Dr. Elizabeth Goins:

Professional Website: https://pineapplestrategies.com/

Udemy Training: https://www.udemy.com/course/master-business-writing-skills/?srsltid=AfmBOopfVGBaQwCe_nNdptNCfPYa3oQjqPf0Y7b94C7tuT0GTMvO5Dt8&couponCode=MT251209G2

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elizabeth-goins-phd-b4748016/


Highlights from This Episode

  1. Technical professionals often prioritize logic over emotion; balance appeals to ethos, pathos, and logos for more persuasive communication.
  2. Start with the answer, not the methodology, especially when briefing senior executives who value brevity over exhaustive details.
  3. Analyze and segment your audience: Tailor messages to their needs, expectations, and decision-making power for greater influence.
  4. Executive presence stems from observable behaviors like open body language, intentional gestures, and confident vocal delivery, signaling comfort and credibility.
  5. Storytelling activates the brain more effectively than facts alone, making arguments up to 22 times more persuasive; structure anecdotes with context, examples, and clear calls to action.
  6. Mirror communication styles, verbal, nonverbal, or written, to build rapport and trust, even in high-stakes scenarios like negotiations.
  7. Foster team communication cultures by clarifying personal styles, encouraging psychological safety, and adapting practices (e.g., off-camera meetings for introverts) to boost engagement.

Memorable Quotes:

RESOURCES MENTIONED

Use CONTROL + F to search the transcript below if you want to learn more!

Transcript from this episode

*Note: this transcript was generated using automated software, and may not be a perfect transcription. But I hope you find it useful.

Travis: Elizabeth, I'm very excited that you're able to join me today. It's a really cool opportunity for someone like me, who's been very much focused on becoming a better communicator. This has been my focus for almost the last year and a half in terms of my big professional development goals. So this is a really cool opportunity. And what had really made me really want to reach out to you was earlier this year I was going on this very deep dive listening to too many AI podcasts. And essentially, after you've listened to like your first 10 AI podcasts, you start to realize that they get to the end of the conversation and they say, so what do I need to do so that I could be so that I could be a valuable person in my organization. Once AI is doing all of these technical tasks for me. And the answer is always, you need to become a better human, a better communicator. You need to better develop your human skills in engaging people and influence in being empathetic. So that was another reason that I really wanted to reach out to you because as AI becomes more adept in some of these technical skills, it's going to be even more important for us to be better communicators. So that's really where I'm coming from. And Elizabeth, I really appreciate you joining me. So welcome. 

Elizabeth: Thank you so much, Travis. That was basically like a pitch for hiring me. So thank you so much. I appreciate that. I just love talking about communication and especially with technical folks. So thanks for having me. 

Travis: Of course. Thank you. I think one good place to start. Could you give us a brief introduction to how you got into executive communication, kind of what inspired you to go down that path and really what brought you to where you are today? 

Elizabeth: Well, the DLDR is that I'm a huge nerd. And so I wanted to go to as much school as I could for communication. The first chapter of my career was actually in government and public affairs after my undergrad. I worked in DC where I'm originally from, but I always wondered if I could follow in my dad's footsteps, get my PhD, and I decided to try it. So I shifted tracks, went to the University of Texas at Austin for my PhD in communication studies, and it was there that I discovered a love for coaching and teaching. And I started out being in the university writing consultant, working with individual writers. I started coaching MBAs and athletes. And I really fell in love with being able to take my passion and knowledge and expertise in communication and help someone in real time. So when it when it came time to graduate, instead of going the full time academic role, I decided to go for it and build up my business. Why I taught at the McCombs School of Business for five years, build up my clientele, went out on my own in 2019. And I get to do what I love every day and work with busy executives from all over the world, helping them improve their communication skills, but just like a dreamculture for me. 

Travis: Yeah, that's so cool. And even got to work with MBA candidates, which I feel like is its own unique area because business professionals are going to have different challenges than others. And then also you get to work with so many diverse people, especially being in Austin. So that sounds like really cool experience as well. Absolutely. 

Elizabeth: I still work with the MBAs today because they keep me fresh. I get to hear about all the most emergent business trends. I love being connected to the university still. 

I'm a longhorn through and through. And I just really enjoy working with that community. As you said, it's so diverse. 

They're so eager. Yeah, it's a joy. And it really helped me hone my executive communication focus, I think, being in the business school for so long. That's where I saw those interests kind of converge from the academic to the practical. I see. 

Travis: And Elizabeth, one thing I was thinking about. So many of our listeners, they're security professionals. And I think, of course, we're security professionals. We're very diverse, but I think many of us too, we tend to fall into probably some of the stereotypes around technical professionals where some of us might be more analytical thinkers, where we're in our communications, we might be slow and deliberate, concise. Maybe we prefer facts and figures over telling stories. So I think we tend to, we tend to maybe fall into that stereotype. 

And I was curious, when you, when you work with some technical professionals, what are some blind spots or what are some areas where you see they tend to have those gaps where they might want to focus on and improve? 

Elizabeth: Well, you said it, not me. In terms of the stereotype, I think that is true in my experience. I, because I am such a nerd, I find that technical clients find me. I'm not sure if it's the way that I market myself or just that we're kindred spirits. But I really enjoy working with technical folks. And I would say that's the bulk of my clientele. I do have clients in all industries. 

But for example, right now I'm coaching four or five different CISOs. And I find it really fascinating to learn about all of the interesting stuff you guys are doing with technology. But to go back to your original question, I would say your stereotype is kind of on point. Most of my technical clients come in as very analytical, logical thinkers. And so we do work to help them understand the other sides of influencing skills. For example, that emotional reasoning and logic is also important when you're trying to make an argument or get by in. We also work on probably the most common piece of advice that I start out with is answer first, especially if you're communicating with senior execs or you want to get your point across in a really concise way. 

And that's a different way of thinking. Instead of laying out all of your methodologies and how you got to an answer and then giving us the answer, I want you to start with the answer and then fill in the gaps. When you're especially when you're communicating with a business audience who might get impatient or doesn't necessarily need all of those technical details to get your point of view. But that's so different. My engineers, that's how they're taught to communicate so that the audience can judge the credibility of what they're saying. But a business audience can be very different. 

Travis: I see. Yeah. And as you're talking about that, one thing that clicks to me in security writing, there's this idea called bluff bottom line up front. So I think that kind of connects in the right way. But at the same time, it's not like all security professionals are reading books about security style technical business writing. So I think for some of our audience that will that idea will click immediately because it's something they've already been thinking about. But that is a very unique way to think about how you're going to give briefs and presentations. And you mentioned emotional, emotional reasoning. Could you tell me more about that? Sure. 

Elizabeth: Absolutely. If we are trying to appeal to someone sense of logic, that is one strategy for persuasion. But if you go real old school to the rhetorical triangle is what we call it ethos pathos logos. That is the classic model of persuasion. We've got to appeal to someone sense of logical reasoning, emotional reasoning, and also their sense of credibility, what they find credible. And we see that echoed in modern research as well around influencing and persuasion that we have to get people to feel things that happen to a different sense of understanding and to get our ideas to stick. 

So if you're just relying on facts and figures and logical reasoning, you are doing yourself a disservice because even though we like to think of ourselves as rational beings, we all are influenced by our emotions as well. 

Travis: Interesting. Yeah, this reminds me of our member had one interaction. It was at a presentation that we were giving to this executive team. We're presenting designs. This is from like a project seven years ago. We're presenting the security design for this new building. And someone had a question for, hey, why do we have so much video surveillance here? 

And then I thought what I gave, I thought I gave what was the perfect textbook answer. I explained, well, you know, for executives, the times when they're actually most vulnerable to something like an attack is during a rival and departure time. So the reason we have so much video surveillance in these parking areas is so that we could be proactive and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And the US Secret Service has done this research to support it. 

And you know what? I thought I gave the perfect textbook answer. No, it went right past them. And they just talked over me and pretended like I, like I wasn't even there. 

Elizabeth: Oh, well, I'm sorry about that. I'm sorry it didn't stick. What do you think you could have done better? 

Travis: I think it was exactly what you're saying there. There was no emotional appeal. It wasn't, I wasn't speaking specifically from maybe the end user experience, like from her perspective. Instead, I was just giving this, you know, very bland technical factual answer. But looking back, that was just, that may have been perfect if I was talking to someone exactly like me. But for a different audience, it's like you said, there needs to be a greater appeal to emotion and maybe even appeal to think trying to speak from their perspective specifically. 

Elizabeth: 100%. If you came to one of my trainings, if there was one thing I wanted you to remember, I always say this, it's analyze your audience. If you want to increase your chances of being successful in influencing and persuasion or just everyday life. Analyze your audience. 

Think about what they want to hear, what they expect, want and need from you, not just what you want to say. It's all about the package that you put it in and your frame of reference. And the same idea can be packaged multiple ways for multiple audiences. And successful communicators are able to adapt to their audience and put it in their message in a package that that audience wants to unwrap. 

Travis: Yeah, I think that's, yeah, you put that in a perfect way. And I think to thinking from the side of consultants, this is also another really important point. It's not just knowing your audience when you're giving a presentation, when you're giving a talk. But I think also more broadly speaking, it's understanding the dynamics in the organization, who the different stakeholders are, how some of them have different interests. Maybe some interests are competing or maybe maybe one stakeholder is louder than the rest. But they're actually not the stakeholder who's leading the project, who's in control of the budget or who has to own the project after the consultants leave. So yeah, I think probably like stakeholder analysis and then also understanding your audience play such an important role. I like the way that you put that. 

Elizabeth: 100%. 100%. And you are more advanced than you think, Travis, because what you're talking about right now is segmenting your audience. That's the language that we use. It's like stakeholder analysis and just understanding the nuances between, as you mentioned, who's holding the resources, who's making the decisions, who might own the project later. I think that's very astute. You really need to think about all of that when you're putting together your message. 

Travis: Thank you. And that also makes me think, I know you've put, I know you've done, you have some trainings online and you've also, you have many writings. And I know you've mentioned executive presence before. Can you tell me more about executive presence? What is that? What does that mean? 

Elizabeth: That is the magic question. That is actually my most popular topic. I find it incredibly fascinating and empowering to work with clients, whether it's in a training, whether it's in one-on-one coaching on executive presence. And the first thing we do is demystify what does executive presence really mean? 

It's one of those mysterious terms. You might get some feedback in your performance reviews that you need to up your executive presence. But how do you do that? It's even when we describe it, it's things like gravitas and charisma. And how do you turn that into variables and actionable items? So I look at it from a number of different perspectives in the research. And the research is growing on executive presence, I would say. And we like to focus on verbal and nonverbal behaviors that are observable. And that moves it from the intangible to the tangible. Now, I will say the caveat is that there are cultural expectations around executive presence also. 

So this is not one size fits all. There's even differences between advice I might give a man and a woman or an industry, different people in different industries. But overall, we can really focus on specific, observable communication behaviors that can either increase or decrease the audience's perception of your executive presence. I'd be happy to talk about some of those if you're interested. 

Travis: Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah. So what are some of those key observable behaviors? Absolutely. 

Elizabeth: So we know, for example, that if the audience perceives you as being confident, then they assume that you're competent, which is a little bit scary if you think about it. But really what that means is that the audience thinks that you are comfortable with the situation, comfortable with what you're saying, comfortable with the people around you. So we look at different things that signal comfort or discomfort. So if I was using a repetitive motion, like twirling my hair, that it seemed like I wasn't aware of, that might signal discomfort. Or if I closed off my arms in front of me, that might signal discomfort. If I was on stage and I had a podium in between myself and the audience, sometimes that could be seen as discomfort if I'm hiding back there a little bit. On the other hand, if I'm tall and proud, if my body language is open, if I take up space on the stage and use the space like it's my own, if I have intentional hand movements. If my voice is clear, my pitch doesn't go up at the end of what I'm saying or my voice isn't tight and breathy. Those are all signals that I might be more comfortable or confident and the audience perceives that as being more credible. 

Travis: Yeah, these are all things. So over the last about a year, maybe a little more, I started doing Toastmasters where I'm going to our meetings every Monday, unless there's a holiday. So it's been, I don't know how many I've been to this year. 

I imagine maybe 20, 30-ish. And thank you. And it was very difficult. 

I was dreading every going every single time for probably the first 20 sessions that I attended. But these are some of the things that previously I'd not really thought too much about. Like you talk about, one, the use of gestures. And it's kind of ironic because there are some settings where people might be offended if you use gestures. I could think of times in the military where someone might scream at you for talking with gestures. And then you get out to the real world and it's like, well, you have to talk with gestures because look, Colin Powell's up there. 

He's got a whole chest full of ribbons. He's talking with gestures. This is the way that people do it in the real world. 

So, yes. So one of the things that really stood out to me once I first started getting more deep into the subject was trying to find, was trying to become more comfortable using meaningful gestures. Because at first you, at first, when you think about gestures, it almost makes you overdo it with gestures. 

And then now you're not using them in the most impactful way. You might even be distracting your audience. And then kind of slowly over time, I found getting more practice, even if it's even if I'm doing a video call at work, getting more practice that way, trying to become more comfortable gestures, but then finding that right balance. So are there any tips that you have for your clients when it comes to the use of gestures and kind of finding that right balance? Absolutely. 

Elizabeth: And whether it's gestures or eye contact or something with your voice or getting rid of verbal fillers. I'm sure all the wonderful things you talked about in Toastmasters. You mentioned some things that are key. I always want my clients to, well, first of all, I want you to be authentic. I want you to do something that feels natural, that feels like the real style that you would communicate in. For example, I have clients from different cultures, maybe Russia, where using a ton of gestures is not, they're never going to be jazz hands presenters. That's not comfortable for them. 

That's not authentic. But I want you to experiment with that range and try to stretch yourself. And as you said, sometimes it might be too big at first or you just have to experiment. And the key is that you want to practice these skills in everyday low-stakes situations. Like any skill, whether it's related to verbal or nonverbal delivery or even the answer first framework. Communication skills are muscle memory skills, which I find remarkably empowering. Maybe a small percent of the population is born naturally good at this stuff, but not most of us. 

Most of us have to really put the time in like going to the gym. So I like my clients to focus on one behavior at a time. We'll identify specific low stakes, everyday situations in which they can practice between our sessions. We also do practice together, just helping them again, explore that range, feel what their style is, feel what is comfortable and work on that one at a time. So you don't feel like you're trying to change your eyes, your facial expressions, your hand movements, your vocal and speech patterns all at once. These are lifelong skills. But if you put in the time, you put in the practice, you're going to see change. 

Travis: Yeah, I think that's a very good way to think about it. It's like anything else, you just need to get your repetitions in and then gather more feedback, go back to your notes, look at, okay, what are my other gaps? What are my other areas? And just get more and more practice. So I like your way of talking about that, working it into daily situations with low stakes where you could get more practice. Yep, absolutely. 

Yeah, and then let's see. Another thing I wanted to talk about, Elizabeth, was storytelling. This is something I just read an interesting book. I think it was Winning the Story Wars by, I can't think of the gentleman's name, but it was a really interesting book. And his whole book was about, he's talking about how, as we become better storytellers, whether it's personally, whether it's talking from the perspective of a brand, whether it's from the perspective of an executive, how storytelling is going to help us better connect with our audience, be more persuasive and really be more likely to inspire action in our audience. And I know personally, this is something that out of the box, my default is not to be a storyteller. And when I am a storyteller, not the best one. So this has also been one area where I'm trying to slowly and slowly, more and more, get better at telling stories. Can you tell me about the role of storytelling when you are coaching your clients? Absolutely. 

Elizabeth: Storytelling is my passion. This is what I did a lot of my research on. I just find it so interesting that regardless of culture, we all know a story when we hear one. And they're a really universal way to communicate. 

And they're so powerful. And the science behind narratives is that they really activate your brain in different ways than just facts alone. So storytelling is a passion of mine because I think the science behind narratives is so inspiring because stories can actually move us to action, like you said. There's a statistic out there that's story up to 22 times more persuasive than facts alone. That's because narratives activate your brain in different ways than when you just hear facts. They give you context. They help you relate to what you're hearing. They help you understand it more quickly and they help move you to action. And that's the key for persuasion. 

Even if the audience agrees with everything you've just said, if you don't give them a clear call to action at the end, the research is clear that they'll probably just go about their day. So when I hear clients talking about stories, we generally think about them as an anecdote. So sharing an example of something that happened as a story and you can use that. I want you to be able to share examples. We know the research is clear that when you add an example, people find it to be more persuasive, whatever you're saying. And you can use simple frameworks to organize your storytelling for those anecdotes. 

You know, feeling anecdote tieback, for example, you're giving a toast. You might say, thank you to this person for every all the great work they did on this project. They really helped us come together as a team. And then you tell an anecdote about it and then you tie it back at the end to their commitment to the team. But there's also ways that you can leverage storytelling principles on a larger level. For example, in your presentation structure, you can start out by engaging them right away with something unexpected, giving them a conclusion that you want them to agree with. And then introducing lots of different types of evidence, like examples, data, facts, all different types of evidence and help them get more and more engaged throughout your presentation. 

And then at the end, giving them that clear call to action is really the key. So we're leveraging storytelling principles here, but on a larger level. And there might be anecdotes inside your presentation. But I like to think of this as capital S story or lowercase story. So I also want you to thinking about the larger narrative principles of persuasion that can help you. 

Travis: Yeah. And I'm starting to see a theme here when you talk about kind of the structure of communication, starting first with essentially a conclusion and then weaving in evidence that's going to support it. 

And then a call to action at the end. And recently this year, I've got the opportunity to go out and be to be a part of a number of workshops that we've done through work. And I could tell the senior consultants on our team, they're really good at weaving in stories. I could tell some of them as soon as they get off the plane, they're looking for examples that relate to that city or that specific community. And then later on, when they give their presentation, they're tying in a joke that relates to a popular billboard in that area or they're tying in some experience they had there in the community. And then so that was one thing that really stood out to me immediately is that if we could find some of these these signals, some of these themes in the immediate area, and maybe this is more specific for those that are consultants that are out traveling to different areas, but being able to find examples specifically in that community and then tie that back into the presentation, it can be even more impactful because it's then it's going to directly relate to the people that are sitting in the audience there. 

Elizabeth: Absolutely. That's where the audience analysis comes back into play. And we know from principles of influencing that liking is a primary influencing principle. And the three biggest predictors of someone liking you are having things in common, complimenting them and working together on a common goal. And so when the speaker is establishing right away what you have in common, which is a shared understanding of that city or place or an inside joke about the location or the organization or the culture, you're establishing something in common right away. You're drawing that audience in right away and they're more likely to be receptive to what you're saying. I think that's an excellent strategy, an excellent technique. 

Travis: Are there any other key areas that are kind of like or any tips that you might have for also building rapport in a quicker fashion? 

Elizabeth: Absolutely. So in addition to finding things in common, we know that let's say in an interpersonal situation, a one-on-one conversation or a group conversation with new folks, there's some research around not just talking about your ability to build rapport, but also showing benevolence and integrity. So what does that mean? It means that people are going to trust you more if you show goodwill and good intentions towards people. 

You can do that by being a good listener, by affirming things that you're saying, saying things that you have in common. That shows some benevolence. You can also show integrity. So show that your values align with their values, that your values, that you act from your values. And in addition to showcasing your abilities, that's important too for gaining people's trust. 

But the research also supports that the other two categories, benevolence and integrity, are important. So that's one piece of that puzzle. Another piece of that puzzle is showing what's called conversational control. And so that's the idea that you can facilitate a conversation. and lead the people in a certain direction, stay on that track, and you can naturally seamlessly control that conversation without being domineering and taking up all the space in the room. That's another way to instantly gain trust. 

Travis: That's really interesting. Yeah, the role of trust is definitely huge. And like you said, it ties back into everything. It's your gestures, it's your vocal tone. It's using the space in the room. That's very interesting. 

And then next, I was also thinking about Elizabeth, when it comes to a communicate, well, actually, no, no, I wanted to jump back to one thing. So at least in the security industry, it tends to be more of a male type industry, but you also, of course, you have many females who are in these leadership positions, many of which who I've worked with. Is should, I don't know, is there any specific advice you give to women in leadership roles when they're giving presentations, speeches, when they're facilitating workshops? 

Elizabeth: Absolutely. And some of this is from research around leadership style that says we can tend to fall into a more attractive style or more powerful style. And these are not good or bad, these are value free styles. And we all have a natural tendency to go one way or the other. This is related to the research on executive presence. And intuitively, we would think that, let's say we're communicating upwards, that we would wanna have a more attractive style. So be more reverent if we're communicating to senior execs and take more notes and just have that more attractive style. But actually, we want to mirror their communication style. So we wanna be more powerful. It doesn't mean we want to be disrespectful, but we wanna mirror their communication style. 

That's another way to be influential, by the way, is mirroring. But I would say for women, I think it's really important that you have what's called a blended style, and especially in a male-dominated field. And so we are all aiming for a blended style. And that means that we can adapt our style based on the situation, based on the audience, based on what we're trying to accomplish. 

And the best communicators with the most executive presence can really blow with that adaptable style. But for women, the research is clear that they really need to be thinking about that. And to accomplish their goals, sometimes they might need to have a more attractive style to get listened to. Or sometimes they might really need to lead into that powerful style, but they really have to be more cognizant of that. 

Travis: Yeah, that's interesting. And I suppose that's true for all of us in a way that we want to be able to find that balance, but also it's knowing your audience. And then also I'm sure in workplace settings, to a degree it's experimenting where you may try a powerful style with one group, you may need a more attractive style in the other. 

So that's very interesting. And next, so I wanted to ask about building communication cultures. Is this ever a topic with your clients in terms of those that might be leading teams and them trying to work to establish the right culture of communication among team members so that really the team members can understand each other, even though they may have very diverse perspectives. Maybe you have architects and engineers who tend to think and communicate one way. You have the security people who might be a little different. Maybe you have more creative people on the team also who have an even different approach to communication. Has this idea of communication cultures ever come up? 

Elizabeth: Absolutely, absolutely. And I'm thinking specifically about the CISOs that I'm working with now, and one in particular, does a really good job of building this culture on his team because of the things you just mentioned. For example, I would say as a best practice, have your team meetings on camera. But for his team, it's a lot of introverts and they're used to communicating off-camera, and that's where he gets the most participation. So even he is off-camera on a lot of their team meetings. 

And that's a signal to him that he's meeting them where they're at, and it's also productive for him because he gets more out of them that way, more participation and engagement. So I think that's a really astute way to notice what your team needs and build that kind of culture. Another thing that I've noticed on a different CISOs, or CISOs team is that they have more of a fail first culture. And so he really tries to engage them to experiment, have a lot of psychological safety in the team where it's okay to try things, where it's okay to fail, but also ask questions when you need it, reach out if you need it. So you're not operating as an island of one, but as a team, and you really have that psychological safety, but it helps them innovate that way. They're not afraid to make mistakes. And in fact, this CISO says that sometimes when he's talking for example, IT, it's a different culture in his organization than the security teams who has to be cognizant of that. So it really depends on the leader. And I think being intentional about that, especially with communication is a great way to get the most out of your team. 

Travis: Yeah, that's interesting in his position where he finds that when they turn the cameras off, he gets more engagement, more participation, they're able to get more work done. Yeah, that's so interesting in terms of just knowing your team because I could relate to the introverts wanting to have the camera off, but then at the same time, if you want to develop more of a connection or you want to see how your ideas are being received on the other side, it's helpful to at least be able to see some nonverbal language on the other side. 

So that's an interesting situation for him. Yeah, and then also in terms of a communication culture, like I've seen this on almost every team that I've worked with, where you have some who are, yeah, probably like more on the introverted analytical side, and then others who are really the opposite, who can talk and talk and talk, and they love to tell stories, they love to kind of like color outside the lines of whatever the conversation may be about that day. So I think part of it too is just for some of the individuals on the team to better understand their own individual communication style and how that affects and how that's received by others, because I've definitely seen in situations where maybe I'm less, where maybe I'm a little oblivious and I think I'm communicating with other people like me, and they think like my style of communication is just way too far to the point and almost away when it's almost like a little bit offensive. So I think part of it too is just understanding how our communication style is going to affect others on our team as well. 

Elizabeth: Absolutely, that is a great point Travis. And I tried to encourage my clients to talk about their communication style and to model that to their teams. It feels weird to say, this is the kind of communicator I am, this is how I like being communicated with, this is the best way, these are the best ways to communicate with me, but normalizing that clarity is very helpful, giving people that context is very helpful. And so for example, when I have a leader that's going into a new role, again, analyzing their audience, their situation, making sure it's appropriate with this team's culture, but I love for them to add that in their introductions, in their first team meeting. This is my communication style, this is how I give feedback, this is even I prefer a slack between the hours of this time and this time after this time, you'll get me on email, or if you want a quick question, send me a text, things like that, just clearing up any unknowns and uncertainties because when we don't know, when we have uncertainty about someone or a situation, we tell ourselves a story to fill in that gap. So it can be a gift to tell people how you want them to fill that story in and reduce that uncertainty about communicating with you as a leader. 

Travis: Yeah, that is a really cool idea when it comes to just being explicit and specifically talking about our communication preferences and our communication styles, because like you said, it's going to get rid of all of the ambiguity. It's like, is Travis annoyed with me when he gives me this response on Slack? And it's like, no, that's his standard response. 

That's how he's going to respond on a Monday at 4 p.m. or something like that. So I think that's a really cool tip that a lot of people can take away, which is just actually, like at first it may seem unusual, but actually talking about communication styles in the workplace and what people's preferences are, I think that would, yeah, that can get rid of a lot of potential challenges and get rid of ambiguity or like you say, making up these stories in our mind to fill in the gaps. So I really like that. That's something that I think I will definitely try. 

Elizabeth: One tip related to that, Travis, I would like to share is if you're not sure, mirror your boss's communication style, even if it feels weird. So for example, in my first job out of graduate school, I was doing a postdoc at a cybersecurity think tank and my boss was super busy. She was busy all day, every day. She communicated mostly on her phone. That's how she did email. She would send me emails with just a request in the subject line blank. No warm greetings, no. And at first it was really weird, but I would, I discomfort, respond to her in kind with yes or no or on it, nothing else. 

It may be deeply uncomfortable, but I did it. Or for example, she would get to our work because we were doing a lot of editorial work together. And I know she was looking at my work when she got home around 9 p.m. That's when she'd dive in and give me a lot of feedback. And it's not that I was, so I don't always look at my email before I went to bed and just let her know that I got her message. 

I wasn't working at that time, but it was very simple for me to show that visibility by mirroring her style. Hey, I got it, I'm on it, I'll work on this tomorrow. 

Travis: Yeah, that is a really interesting way to think about it. And it was something I wanted to get back to too because you had briefly mentioned mirroring a few minutes ago. And I think it's something that I've, I'm a little bit familiar with. There's one really popular book. 

It came out maybe like seven or eight years ago called Never Split the Difference by, I think, Chris Voss. He's this FBI hostage negotiator. He wrote a book about communications. And one of the big, one of the key themes in the book that he talked about when it comes to influence, even in high-stakes situations like hostage negotiations was mirroring. So can you tell us, or can you dive a little bit deeper on what mirroring is in some of these interpersonal contexts? 

Elizabeth: Absolutely. He, that is an interesting book and he had the great masterclass as well. And what you said is true. Even in hostage negotiations, we like when people mirror our vocal communication, verbal and non-verbal communication styles. That's why you see when people are deep in conversation, they might lean towards each other or couples might be walking at the same exact pace and stride and everything like that, because they're in sync. And one of the ways that you can unconsciously show people that you're in sync is by mirroring their communication. They probably won't notice that you're doing it. So that could be their body language. If they lean in, you could lean in. 

If they are holding eye contact, you can hold eye contact. One example is verbal. So I went into pitch a solution to a client one time and within the first five minutes of us meeting, I think you must use the F-bomb five different times. I would usually never use for vanity, especially with a new client, potential client, but I wanted to mirror his style and show that I was okay with that. 

So I threw a few in there during our discussion. So even mimicking their verbal stylings or their written way of communication is if they are formal or informal, if let's say you write someone an email and you say, dear so-and-so, I hope this email finds you well. And then at the end, you say sincerely, Elizabeth, and they respond, they drop the greeting, the closing. Now they just wanna use the message without all those niceties. Then you should drop that because what they're unconsciously telling you is, we don't need to do that anymore. And I think of it as a gift to them because they don't have to look and read through unnecessary lines of text. They're telling me without necessarily knowing they're telling me how they like to be communicated with. So it's paying attention to people's habits and being able to reflect them back to them, like a mirror, even if it feels a little uncomfortable for you. 

Travis: Yeah, and as you're talking about this, I already have one idea in my mind for something that I could change too because I do like to start my emails, especially when I'm communicating with someone who's a little higher in the chain with some of the niceties, with whatever the appropriate greeting is. And those are the types of communicators who they are very straight into the point. So listening to you here, I think I should probably drop some of my formalities and I should just mirror the same way that they communicate. So I already have one very tangible thing that I could implement. Excellent, excellent. 

Elizabeth: The answer first goes back to that. Answer first goes back to that. If you're communicating with a senior exec and you're in the room with them, they want your point of view and they're used to being communicated with quickly. They ask a question, they want an answer. So you're trying to provide that to them in the style that they want. And if they want more, they're gonna ask you questions. So I want you prepared to answer questions but not necessarily start with all of the information you could tell them. 

Travis: All right, okay, yeah. Those are some very interesting things that I could start implementing. And then one of the last topics I wanted to touch on, Elizabeth, was the topic of giving virtual briefings because this is something that I think it really started to get incredibly common during COVID, but then much of it has continued where, you know, a virtual briefing at the end of a project might become something that's more normal than it ever was before. So when it comes to giving a virtual presentation virtual briefings, what are some tips that you might have for the audience in this area? 

Elizabeth: Well, you're working with a lot more distractions, a lot more competition for the audience's attention. Research right now says that we have a shorter attention span than a goldfish, which is depressing, but it's reality. And so even if you're giving an update, if you're giving a QBR, if you're just reporting back results, I want you to use those storytelling principles. I want you to use different engagement techniques. You can ask your audience a participatory question, whether it be a simple icebreaker, something immediately to get them involved. If I want a lot of participation in my trainings, you better believe right away I'm asking the audience to chat or do a poll or something. So I'm priming him with the idea that this is going to be an engaging event. 

It's not just a one-way channel of information where I'm giving it to you and you're just a passive recipient that I'm expecting you to engage. If you're, you can tell a story around your results, where you started and where you got to, what's left to do. Depending on what you want to communicate, you can still make it more interesting than just saying, here's how it went. So think about a presentation. 

Nancy Duarte, an amazing communication leader, says, never give a presentation you wouldn't want to sit through yourself. So follow that rule of thumb and you have to up the ante on virtual communication even more. Also related to that, you're working with less tools, verbal and nonverbal delivery tools to engage the audience. 

Basically, so you don't have physical proximity which means you're not close to them. You have to, let's say raise your hand movements up so they can be in the screen so that people can actually see them. You've got your voice, you might want to make sure that you're really being clear with your vocal dynamics. If you lower your volume, for example, people tend to lean in and think you're about to say something important. If you notice a low, you might want to pick up your volume and pace, give them something different. You might really think about your facial expressions. Because you're working with less engagement tools, you've got to really think about being intentional with your delivery as well. 

Travis: I really like your phrase there that you shouldn't be delivering a presentation that you want yourself want to be part of. I feel like that's really one of the key things that should really guide us in the way that we're developing some of these presentations. And as you're talking about that, it reminds me, I did a two-day training course. It was on the Scrum Project Management methodology and it was completely online. And I was really curious how the instructor was going to go about doing this course and actually make it interesting. And it was actually one of the best online courses I've ever done. 

And the teacher was able to make it engaging by they were doing polls. They were doing breakout groups. Each of us had our own Google Doc to work out of. So we're breaking out into groups. We're each doing our own little group project in the Google Doc. 

Everyone's coming together, giving a briefing at the end of that little mini session or the end of that day. So yeah, I think there's something to being able to use those polls to have some of these small group tasks or some of these smaller mini projects. And it doesn't have to be a mini project, of course, if you're talking to executives, but some of these smaller ways to get people engaged, it actually made the course go by really fast. And I really enjoyed it overall because, project management is not the most engaging, most energetic conversation to have. So I think there was some really interesting points that I had picked up from that course as well. 

Elizabeth: A good frame of mind, a good best practice, this is if we're being our best selves as presenters and communicators, is try to change their modality every five minutes, change what they're looking at every 90 seconds. This is hard. 

This is really hard. By modality, I mean exactly what you were just talking about in terms of who is speaking. So maybe it's you hand off to a different presenter. Maybe you launch a poll, maybe you ask them a question, maybe you show a video, maybe you have them do an exercise, but you're changing the modality every five minutes and then changing what they're looking at on the screen. So that might be using slide builds, animations. 

It might mean that your slides are very lean, but you have a lot of them, which is counterintuitive to a lot of people. It's hard, it's a hard best practice to follow, but I like to think about that when I'm trying to be my best self. 

Travis: Yeah, I really like that too, being able to think about changing the modality every five minutes. I think that'll give a lot of listeners a different way to think about their, one, maybe the visuals that they're using in their presentation, but then the larger presentation as well, where maybe it's engaging an audience member at that five minute point. Maybe it's passing off the topic to another colleague who's going to kick off whatever the next mini session is. I think that's a really cool idea that a lot of us could think more deeply about when we're putting together these presentations. I like that. 

And okay, actually one more thing, one more thing. So this is something, this is a challenge that I have, but I suspect there's a lot of other introverts that have the same challenge. And it's for anyone that you're coaching where their default style might be to be more calm in their communications, they're not necessarily emotional and energetic. Do you have any advice for those introverted people who are trying to incorporate more emotion into their presentations? 

Elizabeth: Absolutely. If you want to paint a picture for the audience, that's another way to use storytelling, but vivid language, for example. So relying on your words, where you might not be as expressive with your voice or your hands, but we know from narrative research that if you can get the audience to imagine something in their minds, they will understand and remember it more. So you can paint a vivid description. 

For example, in interviews, one of my clients would say, on any given day you could find me walking the factory floor with the line manager, solving a production issue in my hard hat and steel-toed boots, or in the executive boardroom, pitching a new product idea to our senior leadership team in my three-piece suit. A really easy example of vivid language, I also want you to practice saying the emotions or making sure that your verbal and non-verbal delivery behaviors match the emotion of what you're saying. So authentically, I want you to push yourself if you're a little uncomfortable with how expressive you're being, that's probably where I want you, because it's out of your norm, but I don't want you to feel completely out of your depth, but start by matching the emotion of what you're trying to say, because your delivery can be like a visual aid to the audience. It helps them understand the intended meaning. So if you want them to feel a sense of urgency around what you're saying, then try to use that into your voice. We really need to act now. 

It's clear we have to make a decision. So being intentional about matching the content to your voice, to your non-verbal delivery, your hand movements, things like that, is a way to hack it, I think. It's not about being performative, it's about helping your audience understand the meaning behind your message. 

Travis: Thank you. Yeah, that gives me a much more tangible way to think about it. You talked about being able to match verbal and non-verbals, incorporating more vivid language that's going to help the audience really visualize whatever it is that you're talking about. That's really useful for me, because that gives me something tangible that I could focus on, rather than... Travis, you need to be more expressive in your communication so that the audience will be, I don't know, be more connected or more engaged. I really like the way you put that. 

Yeah. And Elizabeth, as we wrap things up, was there anything else that you wanted to share with the audience or anything else that you think maybe we skipped over that might be highly relevant to them? 

Elizabeth: You can all get better at communication. It is a learned skill that you can practice and get better at over time. It is a lifelong journey as well. So wherever you are, you can start and get better. And it's like going to the gym. 

You put your reps and you're going to see results. And you could be the smartest person in the room, but if you can't communicate it effectively and have your ideas heard, you're not going to get where you want to in life. So communication skills can empower you to get more of what you want. They can improve your life and your relationships. And they are things that cannot be replaced in human interaction. 

They can't be replaced by AI. That's why I am confident I will always have a job because it is really... We can break it down into research and facts and all of that. And we definitely should in terms of best practices for communication, but there's a human element to it. And this can be your defining professional edge, especially if you're in a technical field. This is probably the best way to set yourself apart from your peers. 

Travis: Yeah, I really love the way you put that. It's not just about giving presentations at work. It really influences everything in your life. It's personal, it's professional. It's going to either help or maybe hinder you in reaching whatever goals it is that you're aspiring towards. 

And yeah, it's just applicable in all areas and can improve your life everywhere. Yeah, Elizabeth, I really appreciate your time today. We talked about some really interesting topics from... We talked about some of those blind spots for some of the more technical, analytical, methodical people like myself. We discussed executive presence, some very tangible behaviors that we could focus on in the future. We talked about storytelling, another way that we could influence our audience, be more persuasive, be more engaging. And Elizabeth, before we go, how can people reach out to you or how can they learn more about the projects that you're involved in or how could they learn more about some of the courses and coaching that you're doing? 

Elizabeth: Well, thank you so much for having me, Travis. It has been just a delight to talk about communication with you. And if people would like to know more, they can find me on LinkedIn. 

Elizabeth Gohans, PhD. I like to try to post content that I feel will be valuable to my audience and my clients. You can go to my website, pineapplestrategies.com, and learn more about the work that my company does. You can also check out my course on business writing, Udemy for Business, called Write Like a Boss, Master Your Business Writing Communication Skills. 

Travis: Perfect. And I will be sure to link to all of you, your website, your LinkedIn, some of the courses that you're teaching, any other content that I could think of. So yeah, it will be easy for everyone to find in the show notes. Elizabeth, I really appreciate your time. Thanks again. Thank you, Travis.
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