Check out this fun conversation with Anna Gorodetsky, Protective Intelligence Manager, fellow podcaster (see link below for her podcast), and mentor to aspiring practitioners. She shared her advice for young professionals interested in corporate intelligence, a one of a kind perspective on what elements prepare someone to be a good analyst, and also the path that led her to where she’s at today.
You should check out Anna’s podcast, IMMIGRANT² here.
And if you’re interested in mentoring young practitioners, just like Anna does, you should consider participating with Girl Security.
Big Ideas from This Episode
- There is no single, best path to becoming an intelligence analyst. Most of us discover this career after gaining several years of professional experience. Additionally, in many ways it is an advantage to pursue an advanced degree after you gain real world, on the job experience because our interests tend to change over time.
- You will stand out professionally among your peers if you pursue diverse professional / educational projects, rather than being cut from the same mold as others following the standard approach. Hiring managers will be impressed by you.
- Being a good intelligence analyst is all about soft skills:
-Listen to different perspectives
-Travel and learn about other cultures
-Understand your own biases
-Think critically about everything
- As you (young professionals) consider a career in intelligence analysis, find a mentor to help you along your path, consider that there are many niches in this field (find one that fits you!), and make use of networking with established professionals in the industry.
- Engage in a hobby! This is so important because our interests outside of work enrich us as humans and as analysts. Plus, hobbies force you to set up “guard rails” to protect some of your (much needed) time away from work.
- To avoid burn out, set boundaries for yourself. As an example, block off time on your calendar to protect your self from meetings for the sake of meetings.
- “We work when we’re needed, so manage your time wisely.”
This statement refers to the nature of security practitioners’ work — there is a 100% chance of your Friday nights or Saturdays / Sundays being spent responding to incidents (at least periodically). Therefore, it is important to build time off into your week days to some degree — otherwise you will find that your personal life suffers.
– Girl Security, relationship-based mentoring programs
– Corporate Security Intelligence and Strategic Decision Making by Justin Crump
– Intelligence: From Secrets to Policy by Mark Lowenthal
– Atomic Habits: An Easy & Proven Way to Build Good Habits & Break Bad Ones by James Clear
Use CONTROL + F to search the transcript below if you want to learn more!
Transcript from this episode (#3)
*Note: this transcript was generated using automated software, and my not be a perfect transcription. But I hope you find it useful.
Travis 0:00 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the security student podcast Travis here. In this third episode, I was lucky enough to speak with Ana Gorodetsky, who's currently a global Intel manager for a consulting firm. In this chat today Anna shared with us a bit about characteristics that make us good analysts, how to preventing burnout. And lastly, she shared a bit about her unique career path, and how she mentors young and aspiring practitioners today. I hope you enjoy the following conversation. And if you do, be sure to like the page on LinkedIn at the security student podcast business page. Thanks, cheers. Anna, I'm thankful you made time in your schedule today to join me for this podcast. Specifically, I know you're actively engaged in projects to mentor young and aspiring practitioners. So really, you're one of my ideal guests. Welcome, and thanks for sharing your time today. Anna 1:07 Thanks, Travis, really appreciate you inviting me. Travis 1:10 Now as we get started, can you share a little bit about your role as a Intel manager, and the projects and tasks that you're involved in, just so listeners who are less familiar can understand Anna 1:22 As part of our role, no day looks the same. So our responsibilities range from supporting our executive protection team, with assessments for different trips and events that our executives are attending. We also support our regional security leads who are all over the world and are responsible for the safety and security of our employees and travelers with different assessments of geopolitical events, and how those could potentially impact our operations or travelers and businesses. We also do a lot of collaboration with teams outside of the security group. So I was able to break some silos in this job. And we have some meetings with our cybersecurity teams and some collaboration with our cybersecurity and cyber incident response team. And then we try to support the business as much as we can, depending on bandwidth with different risk assessment and intelligence products. Travis 2:32 I see it, that's really cool that you mentioned that your role has a lot of interactions with the cybersecurity team in in cyber response. Can you share like, can you share a little bit more about how those kinds of overlap? Anna 2:45 Yeah, absolutely. So a big part of our role is also the protective intelligence piece, which is how you and I met in Arup, on the protective Intelligence Council. So when we monitor different threats to our company, to our executive, to our executives, to our employees, we also investigate different unwelcome correspondence that some of our employees receive. And there is a social media and open source investigation portions or protective intelligence. But there's also the cyber piece to it of, you know, investigating the email the headers, seeing if there's any malware and the attachments, kind of trying to understand a little more of the technical side of it. And combine that with the social media and open source research to get a better picture of the person of interest or poi that we're looking at. Travis 3:48 I see. I see. So it's it's very much related to investigations. Another thing I was curious to learn a little bit about was, what did your career path and your educational path look like leading up to your role today? Was it something that was direct where you were kind of focused on global security from the start? Or did you call some audibles along the way? What did that path tend to look like? Anna 4:14 So it wasn't traditional, like, I knew, you know, I wanted to be in global security. I grew up abroad. I grew up in Israel during very hard times there and the security situation was very tough. And when I came to the US, kind of that impacted me, and also kind of the lessons that I learned from growing up in such a security environment. But I went actually in my undergraduate to study international relations in the Middle East because I was very interested in the political side and the peace building and conflict resolution side of things. But after I graduated from In my undergrad being in DC, I kind of came to the conclusion that I don't want to be involved in politics. And I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do. So I didn't go to graduate school right away. Somehow, I stumbled on my first job in the security field as an investigator. And I did background investigations for a government contractor. And then after that, I kind of started moving along to other positions. And then I discovered the intelligence analysis field. And once I discovered that, then I decided that I should pursue a graduate degree in that area. So I found a master's program at Johns Hopkins, that was intelligence analysis. And that's what I did. And then from there, after several kinds of government positions, I actually moved to the private sector. And funnily enough, my private sector, like my first position in the private sector was in cybersecurity, yet I had zero experience in cybersecurity. And when I was hired to that department, the hiring manager told me, he's like, I can teach you cyber, you can get all the certifications. But what I can't teach you and what you bring is the languages and the analytical skills. And then from there, I spent about a year in the cyber department. And I decided that I really want to go back to the physical security side of things. And so I was in a physical security department and as an intel analyst, and kind of moved along to another company. And that's where I am today. Travis 6:42 I see Yeah, and so many of the things that you mentioned, kind of like pair up with my experience, too, because similar to you, like I studied, like global, like political science, because what I wanted to do, I wanted to go work for like a think tank originally. And then after studying it for four years, I kind of realized, you know, what, I don't want to have anything to do with politics. So I can, I can completely relate. And then same for doing grad school later on. Like, I'm really, I think I'm really fortunate for having waited to go to grad school, because if I would have done grad school immediately after graduating, it probably would have been something that's far less useful for the work that I'm actually doing today. So that might be one good takeaway for some younger aspiring practitioners listening, is that you may get more use out of your graduate degree, if you postpone it for a later date when you have a better idea of what your career is going to look like in the future, because it may always change. Anna 7:42 Absolutely, I mean, I think there is no rush. I was really struggling, because a lot of my classmates and undergrad went straight to grad school or to law school. And I felt like I was falling behind. But then I realized that everybody has a path. And the path that I took was meant to be, because if I went to grad school right after, undergrad, I wouldn't have discovered my dream career. Travis 8:12 Yeah, that's a great point. And can I ask you more about? Like, were there any? I think you've mentioned this to a degree a little bit. But can you talk more about any early influences that kind of got you going in the direction to pursuing security as a career path? Anna 8:30 Yeah, so when I was in my last year in my undergrad, like, I was really always interested in security and counterterrorism, especially growing up in his role during a lot of terrorist attacks. But I never really knew back then that the field of intelligence analysis exists until I took a class in my last year of undergrad, that was an introduction to intelligence analysis. And I was really fascinated by it. And that kind of started my like path towards in data analysis career. Travis 9:12 Yeah, it's interesting how just taking one course can kind of inspire you to take more courses and go down a certain path. That's cool. And another thing I was curious to learn about so when you talk about intelligence analysis, and like the work that you're doing today, are there any particular skills or competencies that make someone successful in a role like yours? Anna 9:40 I don't know. If I like the traditional things that people always say, you know, you have to be a good writer and, you know, a good analyst and things like that. I think that it's important to pay attention to details. I think it's The soft skills that are very important in this field. It's the be curious and inquisitive, make connections, listen to different perspectives. I think that's a key with all especially right now with the amount of misinformation and disinformation. There's out there. I think being a good analyst is like, knowing your own biases. And just, you know, questioning everything, and, and analyzing everything. And I think just looking at subjects and topics from different angles, I think that's really key. Like one thing, I would say, travel a lot meet people from different cultures. Because that changes the way you look at things. Travis 10:52 Yeah, and I could totally relate to that I could think of, like my very first role on an EP team, supporting, supporting the team, as an analyst, I had very little international travel experience. And I could tell by talking to some of the other guys on the team that they had so much to add, when I would go and consult them about, hey, what was your last trip like here? Or, hey, what was your experience? Like, when you when you did this? Or when you did that? So yeah, I can see a ton, a ton of great benefits that come from international travel experience, because when you lack it, you really don't know what you don't know. So I do think that's something that's critical. Anna 11:34 Yeah. And not everybody is, you know, able to travel and things like that. But also just, you know, learn about other cultures if there is one class other than the intelligence analysis class that I think was very helpful for me in my undergrad. And helpful for me today in my career is a cross cultural communications class I took. Travis 11:58 Yeah, that seems like a really interesting topic that applies greatly to, to the work that we're doing. And another thing I was curious, so along your your career path from studying intelligence analysis to studying political science into where you are today, were there any, were there any failures or apparent failures that you had along the way that later set you up for success? Or? Or to put it another way? Do you have like a favorite failure that you've experienced over the years? Anna 12:28 Absolutely. I hate the sentence when everybody says, you know, things happen for a reason, because ... it's like the most annoying thing to hear. But looking back right now, I can truly say that as its so true. So I was in the intelligence analysis field, and I was working for different government agencies. And then I had my I was a contractor, and I had my eyes set on a specific agency in a specific position. And things really didn't pan out for different reasons there. And I ended up moving to another job working as a government contractor there and then leaving the government, to the private sector. And as excited as I was to leave the government to the private sector, I also felt like it was a failure, because I felt like, I had my eyes set on this federal career. And I was going to work at this agency, and this was what I was going to do. And then like, that didn't work out. And I felt like, you know, all my dreams are crashed. But it took me some time to appreciate and realize that this was a blessing in disguise, because I wouldn't be where I am today. If that didn't happen. I think it taught me a lot. And I think that coming to the private sector has been really great for my growth and my career path. Travis 13:51 Yeah, it's so funny how, like those, those incidents are like those small failures, like, at the time, it feels devastating, but then when you look back on it a couple years later, you think, wow, I'd never be in the position that I'm in today, had this event not happen. So Anna 14:09 yeah, that's funny, like, the best thing that happened to me is not you know, going to work there. Travis 14:17 And I could totally relate like, in a in a similar way. A while ago, like when I was in like my early 20s. My career goal, I thought I wanted to be like a Marine Corps officer. And like similar to you, I had like my own failure. And it just pointed me like in a complete opposite direction to work in, in private industry and I, I can completely relate to your story. And then next, I was curious, so for for aspiring professionals that are listening who are also interested in working as an intel analyst or an Intel manager in the future and getting involved in that line of work. What What advice do you usually provide them? Or What recommendations would you make to someone like that? Anna 15:06 I think read a lot, be curious about, even in the intelligence analysis field, there's so many different niches, there are so many different things you can do. And in the government and the private sector, explore different options and find a mentor. I think that's one of the important things. I think I've had some mentors along the way. But I also became a mentor right now. And I volunteer for girls security, which is an organization that is trying to get more females into the security field, and encourage and support them. So I mentor some students there. But also, I've been going back to my undergraduate University to American University to the career fairs there and mentoring students as an alumni, and trying to help you know, guide them, I think just networking is really key. Wherever you are, is meeting people who work in the field. And learning that there are different ways to get to your goal. There is no one right way and one path, like people say usually, they always go into government and then to the private sector. But I recently told one of my mentees, you can do the opposite. And that's okay. You can go to the private sector, you can go to a think tank and then go to the government. Travis 16:35 Yeah, that's a funny point that you make, too, because in one of the recent podcasts that I did, I talked with another global Intel manager. And their path was, they originally got started studying music composition, and being a music teacher. And then from there, they went into military, Intel, and then later, global intel on the private side. So yeah, there really is no single direct path that is best. And it just happens that a lot of those experiences that you gather up along the way, set, you set you up for success later on. And Anna 17:09 honestly, like, I'm glad you mentioned that person who studied music, because that's another thing is that I tell mentees and students that I talked to is find hobbies that are not related to this, you never know what your hobbies going to help you with, like somebody who was very involved in music has a really good ear for languages and languages are really crucial in their security field. So it's the different things you do outside of work that enrich you and as a person. And also I've heard hiring managers when they look at a resume say, Wow, that person didn't have the traditional path. They didn't just do one thing. They had so many things, and they're skilled in different, you know, ways. Travis 17:52 That's an excellent point. Well, one thing you mentioned, too, you mentioned the importance of being able to read a lot and consuming a lot of information that's going to make you better. Are there any particular books that you found yourself recommending most over the years to, to your peers, to the folks that you're mentoring? Anna 18:14 So, recently, I have been involved in the private sector public sector partnership project, and I've been recommending a lot, especially to my new colleagues that join my organization that came from government, a book called corporate security, intelligence and strategic decision making by Justin Crump. You probably are familiar with it, I think. Yeah. So I think there are a lot of good things there that help, at least me built an intelligence analysis department in the private sector. Because another thing about the information sharing and silos is that I think there's a balance between taking the best practices from the public sector and bringing them to the private sector. intelligence analysis departments in the private sector are very different from the government. And obviously, it also depends on the corporation, you work, whether you work in a tech company, a social media company, or oil and gas, or whatever it is, an aviation company and Intel department is slightly different. But I think there are some really good best practices and basic knowledge that is important to have. Another book that really inspired me, which was from that course, that I took in undergraduate was by Mark Loewenthal. And it's called intelligence from secrets to policy. And that's what I've been recommending to my mentees who are in college, just as a basic intro into intelligence analysis field. And if I may add one last book that I recently read that has nothing to do with the field, which is also something I recommend is reading things that have nothing to do with the field especially like fiction or other things. Does that teach you, you know, to be creative and imagine a lot of you know, scenarios when you're doing the analysis and trying to, so to speak, understand or analyze the enemy. But another one is I read recently, it's called atomic habits. And I love reading I highly recommended. Travis 20:20 Yeah, I think atomic habits was. So there was a phase I was going through, I read like several books about habits and atomic habits was the one that was the most simple to the point. And practical. I love that book. Anna 20:33 Absolutely. And there are a lot of lessons there that can be applied just to, to like, because it's not only about the knowledge that we have in our field, but I think also how we manage our time, and what we do outside of work. Travis 20:49 Yeah, there's a lot to talk about there. Because when it comes to habits, of course, it relates to us just as humans doing our day to day routines, but also, it applies so much in the workplace, like when you frame, how you how you interact with colleagues, or how you interact with stakeholders, or other people in the organization in terms of creating good habits or getting rid of negative habits. So I think that book is highly applicable in like, really, every every business sense. Anna 21:20 Absolutely. And going back to one of your previous questions about skills, it's I think one of the biggest things that is important, is, you know, emotional intelligence and being able to read people, and being able to build relationships and understand people and speak their language to them, I think is really important in this field. Travis 21:42 And another thing you mentioned, you mentioned, the need or the benefits for reading fiction. And it's funny, I heard Fred Burton say before that, like all, all good security practitioners ought to read fiction so that they could kind of anticipate future threats. So I think that's something that we can all think about, too, because, for me, it's really difficult to read fiction, I get bored, like really easily. But it's something that I'm trying to get better at. Anna 22:11 I think I'm just like you, I might be the odd man out. I don't read fiction. I don't like fiction. I don't think I own any fiction book at all. Most of what I own is like books about like, true stories, because I always tell myself, if I'm gonna sit down and read, I want to be able to learn something, not some imaginative thing. Like, I've never read. I like a line from Harry Potter. But I do watch, like, different sometimes, you know, you got to disconnect and your brain is tired from work. So I did try to watch some friction here and there. But I'm not a fan. And I see his point. But I think it's important. But I don't think it's the only way to be able to anticipate scenarios. And I think the one of the biggest things, and if there's something we could say about the current, you know, security situation in the world, is that we need to learn from history. Travis 23:05 Yeah, that's an excellent point. And I'm totally in the same boat. It's much easier for me to watch a fiction movie than to pick up like a Lord of the Rings book or something based on something that's not historical. Yeah. Anna 23:19 No, it wasn't loaded during what's the other fiction, one that everybody was really obsessed with Game of Thrones game of thrones ever seen, like a second of it. And I just not a fan. But that doesn't mean that I'm not gonna be a good analyst or security professional. And I can anticipate I think there was really a lot to learn from from history, because unfortunately, history repeats itself. Travis 23:42 But you really should binge watch it sometime during the summer, just just my recommendation. Anna 23:46 I'll try my best. Travis 23:49 Another thing you mentioned that I want to go back to, you mentioned how important it is to have hobbies, because like it enriches the work that you do. But I think another really important way that it helps. I think working in Intel is kind of like one of those roles where it's easy to it's easy to burn yourself out if you just don't have good practices for how to go about work and balancing some sort of work and life mix. So I think hobbies is also really important when it comes to establishing some kind of work life balance because it gives you kind of like some guardrails, where it's like, well, I can't I can't stay up all night working on this project because I have to go to jujitsu class or I have to go to yoga or I have to go to this. Anna 24:39 Absolutely. Couldn't agree more. I think just physical fitness like that helps. You know, clear your mind and I think hobbies. Absolutely. I mean, boundaries are key and burnout is super real. I recently a few months ago, did a presentation for our team at work about burnout. up, and a friend ways to kind of deal with it and different ways to avoid it. And it's interesting that one of the youngest mentees, I have, she's a student in college, I think she's in like her second year. She's a sophomore at a university. And she said, Hey, Ana, you know, I want to join a government agency. And I really want to be in the security field. And I'm really interested in like, combating human trafficking and all that. But I have a question for you. Would I be able to have a family I really want to, like get married and have kids like, how's the work life balance? And it kind of just threw me off guard? Because I never expected that question from like, a 20 year old when I was 20. I wasn't thinking about that. I was thinking, Okay, well, how many applications do I need to fill out to go into this career? And I think it was a really like humbling moment to hear that and say, wow, like, yeah, that's important. And we got to really teach the generation early not to burn out Travis 26:07 yet, and I have a feeling like, Gen Z might be much better equipped for for dealing with burnout. But I guess, I guess we'll see. Oh, when you talk about burnout, were there any particular like, big takeaways that you could share with the audience when it comes to coping with or preventing burnout? Anna 26:31 Yeah, I think I'm just setting boundaries. I think that we have a lot of meetings, and sometimes it's meetings for the sake of meetings. And I think that a lot of times, we try to accomplish things in between meetings. So one really good strategy that's worked for me is to block time on my calendar for specific tasks. So nobody can, you know, schedule a meeting at that time. And I'm really focusing and accomplishing that work. I think that hobbies, like you mentioned is something very important to avoid burnout. Trying to think What other advice they gave my team and I kind of forget, but just, you know, setting boundaries. Like if you are overwork, just find a polite way to say like, Hey, I don't have the bandwidth to take another project. Right? Travis 27:35 Yeah, and that's a great point, too, because part of it is just having to be a little bit assertive in asserting your interests. Because if you just get burned out, you're just gonna end up leaving. And that's, that's an even bigger pain. Anna 27:48 Yeah. And honestly, like, sometimes you will burn out. And inevitably, so there are geopolitical events that happen that do require that 24/7 sort of being on. And there are crisis events that do require all hands on deck. And sometimes, you can't avoid it. But that means you really need to find other times to rest. Travis 28:14 Yeah, I've heard one security practitioner put it this way, something like, Hey, there's always going to be security emergencies and events that are going to pop up on Friday night on Saturday morning on Sunday night. So you should really think about kind of building in time off during the week, if you can, because you know, you're going to be responding to any emergency during the weekend. So I thought that was a really interesting perspective. Anna 28:42 Absolutely. One of my bosses always tells us we work when we're needed. So manage your time wisely. Travis 28:50 That's a good way to put it. Yeah. And I want to go back because you, you also did some internships leading up to working in security. Could you talk about how those might have prepared you for your security career? Because like, for someone like me, I was, I was a bad college student. I didn't do any internships, but I just wanted you to share a little bit more so that people listening can understand how engaging in internships can set them up for success later on. Anna 29:24 Yeah, honestly, like, I didn't do too many internships. I think I did only two while I was in college. And I think the struggle was always like, I always had to have a part time job to pay for my books and school and just like have, you know, spending money and all that. And I think that a lot of students struggle with it. And actually, it's interesting. I was at American University the other day attending like a panel, and they were talking about a law or something that is being passed in DC that there are no longer going to be unpaid. internships that internships are going to be paid. So the two internships that I did were really helpful just to kind of expose myself to different career fields. And also just, networking is super key and making those connections, a lot of people get their jobs from the internships they did. So I interned at Voice of America, which was really interesting to be, you know, on the broadcasting side, I did some translations there, from Russian to English, and vice versa. But it was interesting to see how kind of the broadcasting world works. And then another internship I did was at the National Peace Foundation, which was an NGO that I don't think he's still exists. But that was also interesting to kind of see the work that they did. I think internships are really, really beneficial for networking. And just, you know, kind of a foot in the door, but also, it's, it's sort of like a way to test a field and see if you like it. Travis 31:14 Right. Yeah, that's a great point, too. Yeah, you could kind of essentially get like a test run. And it's like your very first introduction to actually working for a normal business. So it's kind of okay to make mistakes, which is, which is nice for young people. Anna 31:31 Yeah, and you get a lot of feedback. And you learn, I think, like, about the organization, you also learn about your writing style, and different things like that. But also, I think it's important to find like, a good internship, like, I've heard some horror stories about people who interned in like, great places. But were photocopying books, the entire internship. So like advocating for yourself, and making sure that you're actually learning something, and not just checking the box? Travis 32:14 Yeah, that kind of reminds me there's a Bill Murray movie called The Life Aquatic and the interns that are on their boat while they're going on the science expedition. They're just doing all the silliest things. So yeah, that's something to avoid. So you've talked a little bit about your recommendations for young practitioners who want to be involved in Intel? And you've recommended some books. But are there any? Are there any poor recommendations that people have given you over the years in any of your security roles, like Bad, bad, bad advice that you've gotten? Anna 32:53 Hmm, that's a tough one. I think I kind of try to filter that out. I think if I had to say one thing, it's not a bad recommendation. But it was more like bad feedback. And there is bad feedback. Not all feedback is good feedback. Sometimes people just want to be the devil's advocate for the sake of just saying something in disagreeing. And if I can say one thing is that as somebody who is an immigrant, and English is my third language, a lot of times I've gotten some, like bad feedback about my writing and previous jobs. And I think that it just kind of made me a little insecure. And it wasn't the right way. And I think, if there's one lesson from that is that like, not all the feedback you get, you need to take to heart. And some of it helps you improve. But some of it teaches you to kind of stand up for yourself. Because I think when it comes to writing, which is a big thing that people talk about in our field, people have different writing styles. And that's okay. My writing was not grammatically wrong. It was just a different style. And every company and every boss and every government agency I worked in, has a different writing style. And I think people need to be a little more gentle when they're like accepting, you know, a new employee to like, their writing style, and just kind of guiding them. This is the writing style we prefer here. Travis 34:40 Yeah, learning the writing that goes along with a particular workplace. That's always something that has like a big learning curve, because I could think of like some of my very early roles where everyone where they kind of wanted us to write in like a bit of a robotic type fashion, which is I guess they just wanted to look like extra professional. But then moving on to other roles. It was like, people didn't really care so much the style of writing as long as it was something that communicated the point across well, whatever, whatever that point might have been. So yeah, I think that's something that's a big learning curve in most organizations. Anna 35:21 Yeah. And if there's one thing that is across the board, the same as you got to have your bottom line up front, you got to be clear and concise. But some of us come from an academic background, some of us come from a military background law enforcement, the writing is different. Travis 35:39 Yeah, it's a lot to learn for any role. And next, I was curious to ask you. So today, many of the leaders in the security space, they're, they're older than us. They're in their 40s, their 50s, their 60s? And I was curious, like, as, as we see that generation move away from private industry, how do you see the industry changing? If it changes at all? Anna 36:06 I think the industry is already changing. I think that a lot of people are not open to change, which is very unfortunate. But I think that a lot of people are already seeing the change. So just if we talk about, you know, the private sector security, and if we focus on where you and I were before the protective Intelligence Council, I think that even in that field, a lot of the older generation is not very comfortable with like, the social media portion of the investigation, the deep and dark web, I think people are just very uncomfortable with what's not familiar to them. I think OSINT is also a very still developing field. Like for us, it's pretty obvious. But I remember, I think I was in graduate school in 2015, one of my professors worked for a government agency that was just starting their open source intelligence department. And I was thinking to myself, like, Oh, my God, there's so much information out there that you can just get from a local newspaper in a small town, and I don't know, Russia. And there's so much intelligence there. And I think it's that openness to the new and different sources of information is what's changing. I think, also the style of work. Probably the pandemic taught us a lot about how much we can accomplish remotely. But a lot of I think the older generation that was really, you know, used to going to an office and seeing people in person was had a little, maybe a harder time to adjust to that. But also, the one last thing I think that is changing a lot is how much technology is, is playing a role in our field. A lot of the machine learning the artificial intelligence. And, and it's scary, because on the one hand, we know that the human analysis is always going to be needed. But then there are a lot of things that we're learning that can be automated. Travis 38:19 Right? Yeah, those are all really good points it and it makes me think of so many things. Like you mentioned the style of work, I saw a really funny meme. On LinkedIn the other day, it was a picture of SpongeBob. And he's wearing like, this big flowery hat. And he's in like, a great mood. And he's throwing rose paler rose petals in the face of Squidward, who looks like incredibly unhappy. And the caption is that CEOs welcoming back workers to the office. And I could I could totally relate. I can relate also, too. And you mentioned technology, because I do think I do think older generations in the workplace are less inclined or less inspired to learn more about new technologies. And of course, it's that's a generalization. Of course, everyone's different, but that is kind of something I see. So I do. Yeah, that's, that's a great observation. And then next, I was curious to ask you, is there any quote that inspires the work that you do or how you approach your work? Anna 39:33 Hmm, that's a really tough one. I quote. Um, Travis 39:39 like, I noticed you had like a Latin phrase that you had was your email signature your LinkedIn? Anna 39:46 It was in my Yeah, it's in my LinkedIn. It's a Latin phrase that I discovered recently. And when I saw it, I said, Wow, this is me, this is the definition of me. So it says fact a nonverbal so actions over words. And I think that that speaks volumes. Both in my personal and my professional life. I think it's so so very important to have actions behind your words, especially in the, you know, security field, making sure that you show your work, not just tell. I like to always, you know, stay humble, and be in the background. But the work speaks for itself. Sometimes you your work will take you to places you never thought. Travis 40:41 Yeah, that's a really good one. And also, yeah, definitely very applicable in security, but also so applicable when it comes to leadership, like you're someone who works as a manager. So I'm sure it's incredibly important, like the example that you set in the workplace, by your behaviors by your actions. So I definitely see that being very applicable and something something for us to live up to you. On as we wrap up this interview, are there any final closing thoughts that you would want to share with aspiring practitioners or young professionals that are listening? Anna 41:21 Yeah, I think the one thing is just to be brave, Explorer, make mistakes, learn from them, keep moving. There is so much out there to explore. And like I mentioned earlier, some of our biggest failures can become like the biggest blessings. Travis 41:44 Awesome, thank you. And I really appreciate you sharing your time with me today. I wrote down some really good notes around, anticipating and preventing burnout, the importance of hobbies, some of the competencies and skill areas that you mentioned. So I think listeners will take a lot away from this conversations. Anna 42:03 Thanks so much for having me. Thanks, Travis. Really appreciate you inviting me. Travis 42:09 And that concludes today's episode. Remember, show notes from today's chat can be found online at the security student.com which includes a transcript, links to resources mentioned, and a quick summary of big ideas we touched on today. Final note, if you're finding my podcasts useful, and you want to help me in a very meaningful way, please go to the Apple podcasts app and write a quick review stating why you love the podcast.