In this episode I was honored to be joined by Michael Guirguis, M.D., who has some amazing expertise and experience. He is currently a practicing emergency medical physician, a Medical Director for an ultra high net worth family office, he supports the San Bernardino County Sheriff’s as a Deputy Flight Physician, and he’s also a contributor to the Board of Executive Protection Professionals via the Technical Committee and Working Groups. In terms of education, he’s a graduate of Harvard Medical School, UCLA, and also a Loma Linda Medical Center post-grad.
During our chat, Michael shared his perspective on the role of emergency medical training in private security and executive protection. Plus, he discussed a number of ideas for improving how we all approach and think about medical training in our day to day roles.
Big Ideas from This Episode
- Don’t let not being an EMT / Medic / etc stop you from getting the basic training you need to save a life: BLS, CPR, Stop the Bleed, and AED training. These are skills that you’ll always need with you, regardless of where you find yourself. And if you can get TCCC or TECC or EMT training, then that’s even better too.
- In a perfect world, you want to raise the level of training of all of your team members — so when the the situation arises where they need to provide care for you — they can make all the necessary interventions to save your life.
- First you need the skills required for your security role. Then, you need to develop those critical medical skills. That can be done by watching Youtube videos about specific medical interventions / patient assessments / application of measures, and knowing your medical kit intimately (what is in there and where, is anything expired, etc.).
- “As much as you think you’re going to be ready…when your fine motor skills go to hell in a hand basket…you’ve got to train for it in order to feel [comfortable providing care]”
- The key to emergency medicine is PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE.
– Find someone you can train with that has a higher level of training than yourself! There’s no shame in asking for help to keep your skills sharp.
– YouTube is great for reviewing how to use different tools.
– There’s many courses out there in-person and online.
- And soft skills / interpersonal skills are also important in this context. You want to be able to develop rapport with your protectees so that they want you there to treat them and they trust you.
- Don’t get caught up in the debates over which piece of gear (tourniquet / etc.) is best — what really matters is that you become highly competent with the one that you carry, so that when high stress hits you, you’re able to perform and provide care.
- It’s important to think about designating specific team members for making highly specialized medical interventions.
Types of Training:
– Stop the bleed
Use CONTROL + F to search the transcript below if you want to learn more!
Transcript from this episode (#12)
*Note: this transcript was generated using automated software, and my not be a perfect transcription. But I hope you find it useful.
Travis 0:00 Michael, I'm honored to have you on the podcast, you're the first medical doctor to join me. So that's very cool. And listeners will be excited to know that you're here to share your thoughts and your experience about emergency medicine, and not monkey pox or COVID. So, Michael, welcome to the podcast. And thank you very much for joining me. I'm honored. Michael 1:35 Hey, thank you, Travis. It's great to be here with you. And yeah, I'm glad I'm not talking about any pandemic related topics. today. We're gonna keep it light and fun. Travis 1:46 Awesome, thanks. So to kick things off, I wanted to ask you a hypothetical question. So imagine that you have a magic wand and the swamp gives you the power to change any one thing about the security and risk industry? What would you change? And why? Michael 2:04 That's a That's a good question. So in the security world, being involved in the security world for the last three years, on the medical side, you know, obviously, I think for me, it's going to be the medical training. You know, I think in executive protection, corporate security, there's a lot of hard skill training, a lot of guys want to shoot, a lot of the guys want to go out and do hand to hand combat and a lot of those hard skills. And even though there is some medical training, in terms of like learning those hard skills, I don't think it's probably where it needs to be at. So if he gave me that magic wand, I think I would have the guys train more in terms of some of the basic medical necessities that you would need if something were to happen during your work, or someone were to be injured. So for me, I think the basics would be you know, BLS, CPR, AED trained. And then either taking a T Triple C, or a T C C course, would be kind of the basics that every security personnel should have. Travis 3:09 Yeah, I could definitely relate to that. So like, for me, I earned my EMT license years ago, but those those skills are so perishable, if you're not constantly training them, they kind of just slowly, slowly, slowly and slowly degrade. And then even for people working outside of executive protection, even if you're just even if you're just a security officer working at a mall, or you're working retail, or you're working at a resort, it's incredibly important to know those basic skills for CPR. Heimlich, just like very basic emergency medical skills, that you're going to see customers and guests experience, you know, far more commonly than any other, you know, crazy medical or like violent emergency. So I love those points that you make. Michael 3:55 Yeah, no, I think that's that's the case, you know, the most common emergencies are the most common, right? So you know, is, is your client gonna get shot in, you know, the heart of Denver? Versus? Versus is your client going to maybe trip and fall, trying to get away from, you know, people who could be, you know, trying to cause them harm or some other injury, that could just happen, maybe that's a bad example, but you know, just trip and fall and sprain an ankle or, you know, open fracture of an ankle. Or, you know, you've got an older client who just has chest pain, and you need to kind of figure out is this is this real? What do we do? And I think without that, that that skill set. It's hard to kind of know what to do, and it is a very perishable skill. Travis 4:42 Yeah. And these basic skills are so critical. And next, just so listeners, can I understand where you're coming from, could you share a bit about the role that you play in your organization today, and then from there, we can move on to more about your background and your experience? Michael 4:59 Sure. So yeah, I am a physician, a medical doctor. And you know, currently now I'm the medical director for a private family office, I kind of keep locations out of it, but it's for a very large private family, private family office, and I basically oversee 100 security personnel. And we've got guys from, you know, law enforcement side, the military side, you know, special forces. Kind of all over, there's a few that came from the medical side, ie the fire department side, we have some advanced medical training on some of the paramedics that we have. And that's basically, you know, I oversee those guys in terms of the medical training. Now, there's a whole other team that oversees kind of the security side, but you know, for our organization, we want to get those guys all trained up, and make sure they're very proficient. On the medical side, that's kind of the directive we've been given from, you know, the Boss Boss. Travis 6:06 Yeah, that's a fascinating job. And I think probably a lot of listeners are thinking, wow, I didn't even realize that some of these teams have a legit Medical Director, who's a practicing emergency medical physician. So could you share a little bit too, about what your day to day looks like, in this role? Michael 6:24 Yeah, so I mean, as the medical director, I don't have a true day to day function. It's just more oversight, right. So we've got a few guys who are PJ's who are paramedics are very, you know, highly skilled, and they've kind of they run our medical operations. You know, I keep in touch with them on almost daily basis. We work with each other in terms of training. So our guys, you know, can carry Narcan. It's, it's something that we deem necessary for kind of environment that we're in, in terms of some of the homelessness and some of the drug activity that happens not with our client, obviously, but in the surrounding area. So we've done Narcan training, I also kind of oversee all their certifications, making sure that they, they get the CES done, I have to overseeing that they get it done in a timely fashion, and that they're competent, right. You know, like we said, it's a very perishable skill. And with that, you know, perishability, you have to make sure that they're even on their own continuing to train and practice. Otherwise, you know, I don't feel comfortable putting them out in the field, with medical gear, if they're not, you know, practicing, it's not like they're riding on a rig, taking medical calls every day. That's not what we do. So, you know, that's another another thing that I do, and then just kind of helping with case scenario training, you know, my thing is, is all about just, here's this case, you're working one of the residents, and you find this guy down, or so and so client down. And, you know, how do you make that assessment. So that's also a big thing, because that's how that's how it happens in the real world, the real world. So another thing I do is just kind of regulatory just working with the local EMS, so the EMS agencies in that particular area, we're in California, I'm based in California. I mean, it's very complicated the way EMS is done with different EMS agencies. I don't know there's 1314 Plus split up in California. So dealing kind of with them is, is that and then one of the other things is we do a lot of travel, our teams do a lot of travel, and with the medical advances, just kind of tailoring our medical care based on where we're going to be, how close we're going to be to a hospital, a trauma center, how close are we going to be to a country that may have endemic disease that we're not used to here and then just prepping? Prepping for that with medications, or maybe advanced medical equipment that we're going to take with us? And that's, you know, one of the bigger things that I do. Travis 9:16 Yeah, I really like your approach. When you talk about having scenario based training, especially for so many people working in security where you're not, you're not going to see medical emergencies every single day. So it is so cool that you kind of like helped develop those scenarios and make them walk through those in their heads so that when the real thing happens, they know the procedure is steps 12345. So I do love that. And next, could you share a little bit about your role with the board of executive protection professionals because I know you're part of their technical committee and the working group. And also, let me give just a little bit of background for people that are unfamiliar. The board of executive protection professionals is a nonprofit led by GE James Cameron and a number of other practitioners, including Gerard Barney yellow, Lance Gilroy, Chuck Andrews, and many others, including myself. And our big project is developing industry standards for providing protection for high net worth individuals. Michael 10:17 Yeah, so, you know, I know, Travis, you're on the governing board, I guess, and I'm on, you know, kind of the working group and the technical group. And so I was put in contact with James, because of what you could call, I guess, my expertise and kind of executive protection, corporate protection, and, you know, the medical field. So we had talked, and he brought me on board. And, you know, at this point, it's, basically, we're just trying to set a standard. And, look, there's a lot of guys out there that are, you know, SMEs, and all kinds of different corporate executive protection security on the non medical side, and I don't claim to be, you know, an expert on any of that. But, you know, I think my goal is to kind of help with set that standard for at least the baseline medical training that's needed, if you're going to work in the executive protection, corporate protection industry. So that's pretty much my role. You know, we just started maybe a month ago, or so it's probably going to be a good year and a half two year process between, you know, all the different things that we need to do and overview, and review and changes and things like that. But yeah, I'm very excited to be part of that team. I mean, there's a great, you know, group of professionals that, you know, I'm working with, and hopefully I can be helpful, and bring some of my knowledge to the field and, you know, make this a very successful project. Travis 11:42 Yeah, it's great to have you. And then I know, there's at least one or two other, practicing doctors who have perfect expertise to bring to the table there. And another great thing about that, too, is I'm sure you see, like all the crazy online banter on LinkedIn, where people are talking about, this is better for your medical kit, or this is a right, this is the right process, this is better tools. So I think it's cool that someone with someone who has all that day to day experience working in emergency medicine can provide their their best ideas. So that's great. Michael 12:16 I mean, speaking of the LinkedIn banter, you know, it's, it's something that I, I won't banter, but I'll put it out there, you know, I just put something out there, I don't know, a month ago about TCC versus TCC. And for me, you know, I've got my opinion, I have, by no means want to, you know, impose my opinion on anybody. But I'd like to kind of know, what people think, you know, the military guys that took TCC, the, maybe some of the domestic guys here that maybe have taken, you know, the relatively newer TCC, and just kind of what their thought processes on it, and it just kind of helps me get, you know, a better idea of what needs to be done. In terms of medical training in the states here and abroad. Travis 12:56 Yeah, that's a great approach to kind of survey and see what's out there, how people are approaching it, and how they think. And next, so what do you hope to get out of your participation on the technical committee and the working groups? Michael 13:10 For me, the main focus is just medical education. You know, that's, that's my expertise, you know, we can discuss I do have a background in law enforcement, and we can kind of go over that a little more in depth later, but it's just medical education, you know, in a perfect world. Any kind of training that I do medical training, either be in the hospital or you know, sheriff or rescue or some of the other non hospital based kind of pre hospital, medical training that I do is, is trying to get those people trained up as well as I can do. So if in a perfect world, I could have everybody have the same skill set. As I that's kind of what you want, right? There's a lot of Doc's out there, that kind of, you know, there will be on you know, SWAT dogs and things like that, who kind of want to train guys up. But they don't want to train them up to the point where they're not necessary, where they can get kitted out, and, you know, go play and have fun. But for me, I'm like, You know what, I want to know that if I'm actually with some of these guys, and something happens, and we're not close to an ambulance in a hospital, that they can take care of me, he's just as well as I could take care of them. And that's kind of what I trained for. In a perfect world. Now, obviously, it's hard, because it's not something they're dealing with every day, I do this three, four days a week, you know, for the last 1920 years. So I know that's probably not going to be possible. But that's kind of my goal and how I train when I'm working with these guys. That's kind of what I'm hoping, just kind of relaying that message, you know, to the guys who maybe think medical is not that important that hey, listen, you guys should train as hard as you do for some of the other hard skills that you you know, that everybody talks about on LinkedIn or you know, all the courses that are going on on LinkedIn. So Travis 14:52 great. Yeah, I'm really looking forward to seeing the standard that you and the other medical professionals in the working groups come up with because As, like you said, there's, there's so many resources out there, especially going from state to state and in different industries. So it'd be really cool to see like one succinct standard when it comes to providing, providing for the safety and security of executives. So I'm excited to see the final product. And moving on. So I was curious to learn more about you specifically. So what early influences or maybe what late influences inspired you to pursue work in the security industry? Michael 15:32 So for me, you know, me getting into the security industry just kind of happened as a fluke. So, you know, the current position that I hold as medical director for that private family office, basically was a friend of a friend who kind of knew my back ground, and not just emergency medicine, but law enforcement, pre hospital medicine, and made an introduction to a team that was looking for a medical director, and after about, you know, three to six months of back and forth, background checks and getting weird little like, dings of, you know, things from here and here, like, like, hey, look, someone's looking into your stuff. You know, we finally, you know, we, we started working together, so it happened. But in terms of, you know, me myself and why I like pre hospital medicine is as as a kid, I've always been interested in law enforcement and flying actually. And I grew up in Southern California, and the city of Lakewood, right behind the sheriff's stations. And as a kid, I could remember just hearing the police sirens and always hearing the helicopter come in and out. And, you know, I ended up playing sports in high school, I wanted to be a law enforcement officer, and I ended up hurting my back, finally need surgery 10 years later in medical school. But basically, I wanted to be a pilot, I couldn't because of my back, I wanted to be a law enforcement, I couldn't because of my back. And so I ended up going to college. So I went to UCLA for undergrad from there with my back injury, I was dealing with so many doctors and physical therapists that had a herniated disc in my back. And you know, that kind of piqued my interest in the medical field. And from there, I went back east to Harvard for medical school, finished and oh three, I ended up having surgery in my back in oh two. It was just getting so bad, I could barely even walk. So actually, I've been 100% since then. And so when I came back looking for emergency medicine residency, because emergency medicine is more tailored to my style, I'm a little ADHD. And I like to do just kind of fast and hard right here and fast and hard here. And you know, primary care wasn't going to be my thing. You know, I found a hospital in Southern California in the Inland Empire. The level one trauma center, Loma Linda and I had heard through a friend that they had already had a working relationship with Sheriff Air Rescue. So when I found out that I was going to get accepted to that program, I ended up going to the Orange County Sheriff's Academy from there became a reserve deputy with San Bernardino County Sheriff's. And during my residency, you know, I had a mentor there, who was already really integrated in the community with pre hospital care. So I got to work race cars, NASCAR, IRL, the Baja 500, the Baja 1000, we would do the baker to Vegas, for you know, the law enforcement guys that are listening to the podcast, you know, they do a run from Baker, which is out in the middle of the desert, all the way to Las Vegas and law enforcement from international, LA, I mean, all over come and do this race, you know, so I got to work a lot of that stuff. And then from there, that's just my interest. I like I like emergency medicine, I like working in the ER, it's fun. But after a while, it's the same, you know, like anything, it's just monotonous, right? It's the same thing. Person with chest pain person with belly pain person with I cut my finger, you know, washing the dish or whatever. And so that emergency, that pre hospital care that out in the field is kind of where I'm at. And that's, I think, what helped me, you know, push me over to some of this corporate security and executive protection work that we're currently doing now. Travis 19:16 Yeah, it's very cool that you kind of found some other niche areas where you could apply your, your, all of your medical expertise. So that's, that's very cool. And then it also kind of like, just gets you out of your comfort out of your comfort zone, you have to address completely new issues, at least, maybe not issues that are completely new. But there it's in a totally different setting with a different group of people. And, and all that so I admire that. Michael 19:43 Yeah, I mean, to that point, Travis just real quick, like you said, just new setting. So the emergency department is it's chaos, right? But it's a controlled chaos. It's air conditioned, fully stocked rooms, all the support, you could you know, use you know, prior to COVID. Now, you Nobody wants to work. But, you know, you had an era a tech Secretary could make phone calls for you, if you needed a specialist on the line. Three nurses in the room, you're not getting that in the field, right? The field, you're basically you a partner, whatever medical gear, you can kind of, you know, hooked in on your back, or, or whatever. And your goal is to kind of treat, stabilize and get into, you know, an emergency department or trauma center, depending on what situation you're you're working with. So, I mean, it's it's controlled chaos in the emergency room, and then it's just complete, sometimes semi controlled chaos out in the field. So it's fun, it makes it makes it interesting. Travis 20:39 Yeah, that's cool. It gives you a totally different a different perspective. And next, I want to ask you something about, about any failures you might have had in your career. So how has a failure or some kind of apparent failure during your career set you up for success later? For example, do you have a favorite failure that you've experienced? Michael 21:03 I mean, I have tons of failures. You know, if you're not, if you're not failing, you're not trying, it's kind of something I've heard and something I tried to live by. I mean, if you're not failing, you're really not, you're not living, right. You know, I don't know if this was a true failure. But, you know, like I said, in high school, I literally want to be a police officer, or a pilot. And I, and I almost think my inability to do so took me to a career path that was probably better suited for me. So you know, from being a pilot, being a police officer, kind of all turned full circle, I still went to college, I learned the medical, I ended up, you know, getting into aviation with the sheriff's, the sheriff's department, I mean, I get the flight, you know, helicopter, two days, two days a month for the last set, 19 years. And I ended up just getting my private pilot's license, you know, all of two months ago. So, you know, that was just kind of I don't know, if it was a failure, but it was just a change in my life that I thought, oh, man, this thinks I really want to do this. And it ended up turning full circle. And it's been great. I think I've been helpful to my community, and in the field that I play, been able to volunteer time with the sheriff's department, and, you know, hundreds of flight missions and, you know, hundreds of rescues and medical treatment that I've been able to do in the field. And it's just been a great experience. Travis 22:33 Yeah, I love that, quote, If you're not failing, you're not living that. That's awesome. And I could completely relate to your story. Like, for me example, like, early in my career, I thought that what I wanted to do was become a Marine Corps officer. And that ended up not working out. But I was totally not going to fit into the role of being a Marine Corps officer, though. Like, I think I just do not have the temperament, the attitude, like the right behavior. So in a way, it's great to have those failures early on, because then it helps you it helps point and guide you in the right direction. So I can completely relate to that. Next, so there's a lot of young and aspiring professionals listening today, what advice would you share with them, if they're interested in pursuing a similar role to you as as niche and as, as hardcore as it is, when it comes to all of the education and experience that goes into it? Michael 23:28 Maybe the one or two physicians that are probably listening, I mean, you know, medicine is a great career gives you kind of many options, emergency medicine in particular, right? You know, the joke is, is we're the jack of all trades, right? So we're not specialists really in anything. But you know, if you give us any, any buddy, whatever the problem is, we can fix it, stabilize it enough. And if they do need a specialist, we can have the specialist help us so that, you know, that's the kind of running joke with emergency medicine. But that being said, you know, look at what I'm doing now I can do, if I'm an OB GYN, I probably can't be doing executive protection, or I can't be working a NASCAR race, it's probably not going to have the skill set that's going to be necessary if something if something happened. So, you know, for many specialties and medicine, where it kind of gives you that option to do a lot of other things. I think for the EP, EP professional. You know, for me, obviously, there's, you know, the skills that you need to to be an EP professional. But, you know, for me, it's just focused on the medicine, right? And basic medical care. Like you said, it is perishable. You need to practice, practice, practice, and if that means pulling up a YouTube once a week or doing a scenario with guys you're working with while you're sitting in the hotel, running things back and forth with each other. I think that's that's very important, you know, because the reality is domestically I mean, medical emergencies are going to be what you deal with, you know, there's no gun battles in the street in some cities, I guess there are but and most Cities, you know, and then the work we're doing. That's not high on, you know, kind of the threat assessment that we do, you know, it's going to be the twisted ankle, the chest pain, the problems breathing, you know, the, maybe the allergies that may happen, it's, it's all these medical things that are gonna happen. And, you know, if something, you know, traumatic were to happen car accident, or let's say there was gunfire an injury, you know, your job is to help just stabilize treat to the best of your ability and get into and get into a hospital. And the last thing you want to do is not be prepared for that. Because the reality is, is we do a job that is for protecting, and if there's a failure in that job of protecting, that means there's probably going to be an injury, and you got to be ready for that, as much as you think you you're going to be ready when the stress of that happens when the blood starts occurring. When the screaming and you know, your fine motor skills go to hell in a handbasket, because now you're nervous and you're trying to do something and you can barely move your hands. You just got to train for it and, and training and being comfortable with it is what's going to make you feel comfortable. I mean, I'm at the point in my career, now it's like, give me anything fine, I may get a little nervous, but I can still, I can do what I have to do, because I've been doing it, you know, for 20 years. But that's what you need is you need just practice, practice, practice. And I think another just one other thing is your soft skills. Right? You know, even in emergency medicine, your soft skills are important, you know, sitting down talking to a person, making them feel like you care, you're listening is very important, especially in medicine these days. It's like everything is a metric, you know, did they do they care about your service, I mean, it's, it's, it's wild what medicine has been, but it's the same in the EP world, right? You know, you can be that, that badass special operator, and if you've got, you know, a demeanor, that's, you know, not a fundamental to be around, you know, people don't want you around you may be you may be the best person in the world to protect them. You could save them from all kinds of things. But if they don't want to see your face every day, it's just it's not possible. So think soft skills are, are very important. Also, Travis 27:21 right? Yeah, those intangible, those interpersonal interpersonal skills are critical. And I also really love your advice when he mentioned something as simple as going over YouTube videos to kind of mentally walk through these different scenarios in your head, or even just going through your kit and familiarizing yourself with all the different tools that you have available for these, like for these, like diverse scenarios that you might encounter. So as simple of an activity as that is, that sounds like something that's awesome, that's going to help you really stay to really keep your skills strong, and to mentally rehearse all of those activities for when really emergencies take place. And you're under high stress. Michael 28:03 Quick example, I've done this where I thought I knew my kit, you know, I've gone to share for rescue, and I, and I had my kid and we you know, we use the county's kit. And I was like, okay, great, I know where everything is. And it got switched up on me. And I didn't go through my kit like I should have, and we had a call. And there was a delay because I couldn't find stuff. And that was 100% my fault. You know, I'm there two days a month, it got switched up on me, I didn't go through my kit, like I'm supposed to, I just got real complacent and figured it was gonna be where it used to be and where it was last month. And it wasn't. And, you know, everything was fine. But you know, it's a wake up call, like, you got to know your kit. If you've got a med kit or a kit in your car that you're using to move a client, you know, beginning your shift, pop it open, pull stuff out, put it back in and make sure everything's working, make sure if those batteries have to work and you know, they're not corroded. You just got to you know, check your kit and just make sure your gears, your gears good. That's for non medical care, you know, as well that people I'm sure guys do. Yeah, it's good advice. Yeah, Travis 29:11 it's definitely very easy to become complacent in any security role. So yeah, I love that advice. And next, so over the course of your career, what books have you tended to recommend the most or maybe given out to your colleagues? Are there any particular ones that stand out to you? Michael 29:30 I don't have a particular book. I mean, obviously you know our Tintinalli's for emergency medicine is the Bible for emergency medicine Doc's right. But that's a little probably too advanced for you know, the, the typical corporate a provider. I don't know if I have any particular books because there's such a large scope. I mean, there's some guys that are medics, some guys are anti some are just emergency responders and we've got CPR you know, BLS ALS skills know how to use Add, I think it's just for your skill set, you know, find someone that you can train with. preferably someone who's, you know, got higher, you know, level training than you do. So if you're a medic, you probably want to talk to a doc or a nurse practitioner or someone who's got higher skills, higher skill set. And then if you're just an emergency medicine responder, and you want to learn something more advanced, maybe talk to one of the medics on your team. I think YouTube is a great, I mean, there's there's courses, there's YouTube videos, that like, Hey, I forgot how to, you know, place an ad on someone I mean, you can find the make and model of ad or using and take a refresher. You know, from even for me, so, you know, ER doc, I intubate I do all that stuff that, look, there may be six months where I have an intubated, and I'm like, you know, do I need? Do I need to do something? So I'll call one of my colleagues in anesthesia and say, Hey, listen, can I come up at 6am when you guys are, you know, doing intubations for surgical cases, and they'll come up what I'm doing work for them. So I'll go and do RSI do three, four intubations feel comfortable, and I'm good to go. There's no shame in just keeping your skills, asking for help. If you haven't done something in a long time, ask someone to show you how to do it again, or go out and you know, find a course or a video on on how to do it again, to keep your skills up. Just just it's all about practice. Travis 31:33 Yeah, those are great points when it comes to finding references online for video tutorials going through different situations, or maybe written standards that are out there. Like, for example, something that I'm working on right now different topic. But like for physical security, I just earned like this fancy physical security cert, but it doesn't really mean that much. Because there's so much more stuff that I have to do out there. Like for example, right now, I'm working on developing like some some of my own cheat sheets for referencing, like how to defeat different pieces of door hardware or weaknesses in different types of security systems. So I also think just kind of being passionate about the topic and just diving deep into it and researching it and creating maybe some of your own cheat sheets. I think something like that is also incredibly useful. So I like your points. Michael 32:23 Well, I'm glad you actually just brought that up, because I'm going to now use you. So you know, kind of on that discussion of physical security, I mean, kind of with everything that's going on in the world, you know, I've got a four and a five year old and in private school, and I actually finally just had to join, you know, that security team that's at the school, just to help harden up the school with all the madness that's going on with these, you know, these active shooter incidents, you know, in the country. So I think I may, I may be calling you then after this to help us. Travis 32:56 That's definitely a conversation we could have for sure. And next, so what if any bad recommendations? Have you heard people in the field give over the course of your career, anything that stands out Michael 33:10 at recommendations? I won't call them bad. I think it's different opinions that people have like yours. So we talked about earlier, the banter on LinkedIn about what course is better what tourniquets better, what have you. I mean, see, I think those kind of arguments are like in terms of tourniquets, right. You can argue what tourniquets better a cat versus a squad versus rats versus who knows what. I think there's just a point where like that's, it just becomes Nolan void. You know, every person has their tourniquet that they practice with and use. And that's the tourniquet for you. If you use it, if you practice with it, then that's the tourniquet because the reality are, the reality is that these tourniquets are all the same, they may have a little swivel a little locking mechanism, little less velcro more velcro than the other but they're pretty much all the same at that point. It's just marketing and you know who got the biggest contract with what government agency and that's why their name is bigger. Find the one your organization uses. Use it, practice with it know how to use it in a dark room know how to use it one handed know how to use it with your eyes burnin from pepper spray know how to use it you know every which way I mean you should be able to do it blind and deaf and, and one handed if possible, because the reality is, if it happens, that stress, you know that fine motor skill starts to go you're just flipping and flopping around with this thing and you have a practice to just gonna make it 10 times harder to put on. I think that's kind of one of these, you know, people want to not buy a tourniquet or buy a tourniquet based on you know, some of these arguments that they have. Another thing is like a Keep bull eager to carry thoracostomy needles, right, domestically, okay, internationally where, you know, you're, you're in a war zone, yeah, chest seals, thoracostomy needles, if you're a medic, great, domestically, there's really no value to it, you know, maybe if you're rural out in the middle of nowhere, and there's a high risk for, you know, penetrating injury, then fine. But it's not necessary, you know, domestically, you're in LA, you're, you know, a stone's throw away from a trauma center or from a hospital, it's just not something that that needs to be done. So, you know, sometimes too much kit is bad, probably lead you into doing something that you really don't want to do. And, you know, in terms of, you know, a needle decompression of a chest, it's, it's never the skill of doing it. That's hard. It's always a skill of, do I need to do it? And that's what's hard. You know, anytime I put a needle in the chest, you got to pick her up a little bit, you say, alright, is this necessary? Do I need to do this, and that's, you know, with, with practice and experience, and just seeing a lot of cases that needed it didn't need it, you have to make a determination. Travis 36:12 Yeah. And I love having the opportunity to chat with someone like you about these topics, because it's not until you talk to someone who's an expert who's, who's deep into the subject who's doing this work every day that you could, that you could see through like a lot of the other, maybe like, bad advice or bad recommendations you see online, like, like you mentioned, that there's very, that there's minimal value for carrying those chest needles here in the US unless you're in like some kind of rural population. And also that frees up more space in people's gear for the things that they're going to be using every single day. So it's really cool to get the opportunity to free to point out some of these things that are obvious to you, but less known to many of us, and then plus, how many people out there carrying a chest needle have actually had the experience or know perfectly how to apply that type of measure. So Michael 37:10 yeah, I mean, it's obviously it's a skill that if you need it, you need to have trained on it. But there's a specific person operator, medical skill level that needs to be the one doing it. It's not your every day, you know, security personnel that should be carrying one, you know, maybe one person or two people on the team are well trained for it. And that's what we do. I mean, you know, with my organization, we've got specific guys who basically carry and will use it if needed. Travis 37:43 Yeah. And Michael, as we wrap up the session, are there any final ideas that you wanted to share before you go with anyone? Maybe they're working in like a security officer role, or maybe they're working in a corporate EP type role? Michael 37:59 You know, I'm always open to reaching out you can find me, Michael G. on LinkedIn. I'm pretty open. I talk to a lot of teams, you know, with the board of executive protection professionals. I've had a lot of people from, you know, Secret Service and things reach out to me about some of the work they're doing with some of the corporations that they're working with. Now, you know, post retirement. If anybody's got questions for me, they can reach out to me on LinkedIn. In terms of the security personnel. If you have medical questions, you can reach out to me, I just for me, it's there's just that basic skill set, you should probably be BLS CPR, minimal, stop the bleed training with the use of tourniquets, hemostatic agents, use be able to use an AED all those are skills that you don't need to be a paramedic or an EMT to us right. So don't don't let that not being a medic or EMT stop you from taking that training. There's absolutely no reason why you can't take that training. You'd be covered under what's that law that they have? Get some air? Yeah, so the the Good Samaritan Act, you'd be covered under that. So you stop and see someone or someone's bleeding, you place a tourniquet. I mean, could there be some litigation or something that you you put it on wrong? Maybe, I mean, that's the kind of world we live in. But, you know, would you allow them to just bleed out because of that? No. So you're gonna put that tourniquet on, you're gonna, you know, do what you can do, as, you know, a security provider. And let the, you know, the pre hospital medics and EMTs when they get on the scene, take over care. But it's I think it's very important to just have that skill. I mean, it's a skill set that you would want for, you know, for home right and a lot of people have kids families go camping, and it's just It's something that you can take outside of your outside of your career for everyday life, you know, I don't know how many times I've been on the freeway, and watch the TC happen right in front of me. And I can get out and provide care, you know, and most of the time, it's nothing, but sometimes it's, it's something big. So it's just a skill that you'll you'll always need in this world. And better just kind of learn it and practice it now and then to the wish you had it in the time that you need it. Travis 40:29 Yeah, all great points. These are incredibly important skills that apply in the workplace, outside of the workplace, with our families. And yeah, there's probably no cooler thing you could ever do than save someone's life. So having the ability to do that in a critical situation, that could be amazing. And, Michael, I really appreciate you joining me today, we covered some interesting things you shared a bit about your really cool background, you shared some really cool ideas for those of us that are interested in medical training and keeping our skills sharp. So we'll be sure to include some some of the resources that you mentioned, and any other resources that you want to share with me online. And yeah, I really appreciate you joining me. I'm incredibly grateful. Thank you. Michael 41:16 Thank you, Travis. And I appreciate the opportunity to be on your podcast. I've listened to all the previous podcasts. I mean, I think it's great for the industry, to kind of have these different perspectives on different aspects of the career. And I once again, appreciate it and hopefully, you know, your listeners thought this was what's helpful. I appreciate it.