Show Notes: Violence Prevention and the Human Element of Security with Jameson Ritter | Episode #20


In this next episode I was happy to be joined by Jameson Ritter, CTM, CPP, PSP, PCI, all the way from the North Star State. He’s a security leader, with a passion for threat management and violence prevention. His experience ranges from Air Force EOD, to Law Enforcement, to protecting private organizations.

And what I think you’ll enjoy most about my conversation with Jameson is his enthusiasm for getting people interested in threat assessment (myself included). Plus he shared great insights about the human element of workplace training, his ideas on the importance of networking with our security peers, and of course — why you should consider participating with ATAP (Association of Threat Assessment Professionals).


Big Ideas from This Episode

  1. We need to prioritize the human element of security — more than tech — and think how things get done day to day by people in our organizations.
  2. Security systems need to be design in such a way that the average employee can easily share threat information and take advantage of pre-incident indicators that are expressed in the environment.
  3. Part of this is developing a culture of security. Where employees know that their reports of information will be used and actioned. And that it will be appreciated.
  4. We need to develop training tailored to our audience. That means the medium, the content, knowing the needs and context of the audience, and more.
  5. Get out there and talk to your security peers. Meet them at conferences. Get a drink with them. And see how you can help each other develop your careers and your org’s security programs.


Use CONTROL + F to search the transcript below if you want to learn more!

Transcript from this episode (#20)

*Note: this transcript was generated using automated software, and my not be a perfect transcription. But I hope you find it useful.

Travis  0:00  
Jameson excited to have you today, it's been my goal to find more guests working in threat management and workplace violence prevention. And I think you fit that mold perfectly, you've got the experience in corporate threat management, you're also a leader within your local eight tap chapter. And then plus you have some really broad experience when it comes to law enforcement and working in the Air Force. So I'm just really excited to chat. And thank you for joining me today.

Jameson  1:42  
Appreciate it. Travis on. I was excited for this conversation.

Travis  1:46  
Thank you. So I like to kick things off with a fun hypothetical. So let's say I can give you a magic wand and this magic wand gives you the power to change any one thing about the security and risk industry. For you. What would that be? Is there anything that comes to mind that you would like to change?

Jameson  2:08  
I think that's a really great question. I kind of double down on a one general topic, which is how do we prevent? How do we in terms of workplace violence? How do we prevent violence? What is it that we're trying to accomplish? By we've all heard the phrase left a bank by getting ahead of things? How do we get better at doing that? And I think that is where the world is headed right now. And for that's a good thing, that we're we're shifting our focus, shifting our energies, attention and even investments in some cases toward a prevention model over other areas, for example, you know, is it wiser to spend money on training and awareness programs, or cameras, and gates and guards, things like that. And I recognize there's a balance of that on all of these conversations, depending on your organization's mission, what kind of threats we face and things. But I think, fundamentally, if I could raise my wand, I would have the industry and the folks that we report to our our leadership, who may not have our background and experience and understand this conversation as well, to really think about what we can do on the prevention and recognize things before they happen so that we can get ahead of the problem, and then invest the money in the physical stuff. Once we built that foundation of you know that that human element, as I say, and I didn't make that up, I think I saw that and advertise that that human element piece, I think is the foundation of every good security program. And then we build on top of it. So I'll flip that on its ear, you can spend a lot of money. And indeed, organizations I work for and earn with in the past spent a lot of money on physical security. And even if done well, if we don't take into account the human element, there are going to be gaps. And even just as simple as you know, we have really great doors and cameras. But if we leave our doors propped to let people tailgate, if we don't have proper credentials or wearing visible credentials, we undo all of those millions and hundreds of 1000s of dollars that we spent on physical security because we spent behavior, we haven't seen that human element, we haven't prevented behavior from bringing risks into our organization. So it's kind of a long answer to a short question, but that would be my magic wand that we get ahead of these things that we start to focus in invest on prevention, and recognizing threats before they come to our doorstep.

Travis  4:50  
Yeah, I like that answer. And I feel like you know, it's kind of unfortunate today that there's so many incidents that we have to see happen before The idea of pursuing, you know, prevention type initiatives and training really gets on the radar of so many people that are, you know, executives and leaders in different organizations. It's unfortunate that that has to be the case. But on the on the flip side, it is good to see that so many more organizations are investing in proactive security where they're getting, like, they're getting comprehensive security risk assessments done so that they can understand what they're protecting what their vulnerabilities are. And then, like you mentioned, really seeing the value in training and like the human and the operation side versus just technology, because it's like very, it might be really desirable. And it might be attractive to spend lots of money on security. And it might give you like a warm and fuzzy feeling to say that you did something, but But yeah, really, it comes down to having like a holistic combination, and really laying out the foundation first, which is going to be around operations in the human element rather than just implementing technology. And so yeah, I really like your answer. Yeah,

Jameson  6:10  
I completely agree with you. And thank you, I think that we are starting to see a shift to, to upskill your phrase, unabashedly and say that holistic view of things, I think physical security is one component of a larger mindset, larger conversation. And if we don't add those other elements in again, we could spend an awful lot of money on physical security elements and and things like that. But if we don't address human behavior, and the things that make humans are unpredictable, and and such a variable in our in our operation, then we're, we're we're gonna miss something. And and that's what I like to do, you know, what I, what I really enjoyed when we talked about workplace violence and behavioral threat assessment and management is really getting a wrapping our arms around that conversation about the human element, and what can we do? You know, we can have Jameson, you know, threat manager, Jameson, the Workplace Violence Prevention Guy in this conversation, that's great. But I'm one person, how does an organization itself go out there and say, look, the people who are going to notice things out there that you know that the traditional phrase, the See Something, Say Something group, we have to get a lot better at getting those frontline people, the folks that are out there in the field are in the business or in the faith community, to get more comfortable looking for things, to know what to look for, and how to report it. And that is a, it sounds simple on paper, or maybe it doesn't, but it's, it runs against human nature to some extent for people to get out of their comfort zone. And because what we find is, and I think it makes a lot of sense, even people without a threat management background would say, Look, when something violent happens, when there's a major crisis or incident, there's usually in fact, I'd argue always a bunch of stuff that happened before that, that either was heard, witnessed, discussed or anything else that indicated whether there was a problem coming, maybe not to what extent or when, but there's this backstory that always comes out, get better at finding that backstory in the now in the present, then reporting it to the appropriate group to having a group that has a higher level understanding of those things to be able to analyze and to make recommendations and intervention. super critical. And and I guess I would say as a member of a tap, as, as a member of this behavioral threat assessment and management community. We're getting there, you know, our we're growing the message, we have sister organizations around the world now we have an excess of 3000 people as members of a tap the organization and our message is getting out there. And so we're on the right track. And I'm excited about that. Now, clearly. It's one area of things that I work on. But I would say of all the things I work on, it's certainly one of the most critical.

Travis  9:26  
Yeah, it's awesome to see how much a tap has been growing like over the last four to five years and the number of attendees at some of the conferences. I think that's been great. And I do really like your point too about really like designing some of these systems, with users in mind, like understanding like if we're going to design something around, read around giving, giving tools to the to everyday to everyday workers so that they could report suspicious activity or so that they could, you know, run up some red flags But they've seen to their management, like it really comes down to making making these tasks easier. And then also awareness and training them so that when when they see something, they could easily recognize it and tie it back to Hey, isn't this like maybe like a pre incident indicator of violence? So, yeah, I do really like your thinking around that topic.

Jameson  10:22  
100% agree with you, I think that, again, it's easy to have as somebody who in my current role works on policy, and guidance and things like that kind of getting in the weeds of the documentation, I would even say, it's great to have a policy, obviously, you need one, workplace violence policy, corporate security policy, whatever it happens to be. But there's still a huge piece there, you just have a policy that says if you see something, say something, or your version of that culturally appropriate version of that in your organization, but you don't empower your people to make those calls, if they're not comfortable with it, if they don't feel like people are listening, or that there's a group that's going to take that ball from them and run with it. They're not going to report it, you know, it's easier. Human beings are uncomfortable having those type of conversations. So in order to increase that comfort level, there's a whole bunch of stuff that happens has to happen, you have to have a culture of that accountability and that ownership where it's not just the security organization that's responsible for workplace violence, it's every single person in the organization that is responsible for and you just have a backup of an infrastructure that helped, you know, take that from you and say, Thank you, thanks for reporting. You know, maybe it was a nothing burger, but thank you for reporting it. Because the things that keep people like famous and up at night are the things that don't get reported. And, and we want to make that easier. I'd rather I use this conversation when I do some work consulting in the in the faith community. And I use this phrase all the time, I want the funnel to be bigger, I want to get more stuff in, whether that's just somebody seems to be spiraling a little bit, whether it's chemical abuse, whether it's, you know, addiction, mental health, domestic, all these things, may not have a path towards violence. But if I miss them, then I'm missing a broader set of indicators that might, that maybe I can make an influence on, that my organization can look out for, and potentially find these people resources or get them off a pathway that could include violence, and maybe not, but it makes us better to the people to be able to bond that funnel, because there's a lot of people, we want to bring in a lot of information we want to bring in, have a look at and then say you're right, this, this is something that can be handled with additional community resources. Great. Let's get that person to those resources.

Travis  12:59  
That's an excellent point. Yeah, it kind of comes back to Designing a culture that makes it that makes it easy and comfortable for people to report that information so that we could have, you know, very timely and detailed information about potential threats across the organization. And next, I wanted to jump in and ask you if you could share a little bit about the role that you play in your organization today?

Jameson  13:28  
Yeah, that's a good question. So right now I, I work as a corporate security leader for a fortune 100 ish, transportation, warehouse and food service industry in the US. So broadly speaking, across all 50 states, operations all over the place, a lot of warehouse, a lot of drivers, retail, so it's kind of all over the board, quite a diverse business. I am the senior most security person within the organization. And my reason for being is largely to help build a program to bring a bunch of existing programs that existed throughout the organization sort of in, you know, not necessarily, across, you know, some sort of even this is the policy this is how everyone does it, you know, maybe we have seven or 80 locations, and 70 or 80 different ways of looking at security under that umbrella. And we're trying to Part of the reason I'm here is to try and bring that up to kind of something more consistent. So that's largely what I do every day is try to bring some of those pieces in and try to align them with kind of what's going on in the industry with part security and workplace violence. And Britain kind of raise up the level for all the different pieces of our organization anyway.

Travis  14:53  
Wow. So at you at different locations. That's, that's a lot. And like, what What types of general projects do you find yourself working on without going into too much detail? Yeah,

Jameson  15:06  
it's absolutely. So a couple of different things. So because this program as it exists, now, this is a new role that I jumped into about a year and a half ago, it really is a lot of ground up building. So most of my week or month is involved with identifying solutions for, for example, training and awareness. How can we improve as, as our enterprise, you know, we have that checkbox, workplace violence and active shooter training that everyone takes when they come in and join the organization, but TAS bat, there's a, there's a fairly large gap. And so my job, as I see it, is to find ways to fill those gaps, given kind of best practices, and given what's going out there in the industry as part of training and awareness, and technology, and whatever it is, and bring those in, I'm also responsible, to some extent for aligning that with our physical security presence. So many of the projects I'm working on are kind of early pilot stage, which is there, if we have gaps with uniformed security guard coverage, or, you know, industry challenges there, which I think there are minutes in, that be replaced, or augmented through technology using what's kind of currently going on right now in similar organizations. And when you apply that to, you know, at least at the beginning to some of our more high risk facilities, and then going from there, you know, pushing that out broader. So a lot of my work is, is kind of researching and developing pilots. And, and for the most part, I spent a lot of time doing sales, like just do internal sales. So I take what I believe is a good push ahead on some particular topic, I tried to gain internal buy in and momentum on that, get that into the field. And then, you know, get ready to solicit that feedback so that I can do a better job of that internal sales giving at a higher level and say, Okay, if this works in two or three locations, let's apply that those lessons learned to, you know, 60, you know, or if we do something really well in retail, which is probably another 70, or 80 of our locations on top of the bunch I mentioned earlier, if we have challenges there, let's try to identify a couple of things that we can do to help. And it may be just small steps. But that works. Let's build in. So it's, at the end of the day, I work on a lot of individual projects that are all kind of aimed at getting momentum in the right direction to take what's there, what works, and continue to drive that. And hopefully add some new things kind of bring it cohesively together into a corporate program, I'd say right now, it's largely these little islands floating out there that do different things that have different ways of looking at security. And we're trying to iron out those ripples a little bit.

Travis  18:03  
That's fascinating. And that's kind of cool. You almost get to run like small, small experiments at some of the sites, figure out what solutions work, which ones don't. And then from there, roll it out to some of the broader locations as well. And you mentioned training and awareness. And that's something I've been interested in for a long time. Like, it's kind of it's interesting that so many organizations, when it comes to like security, training and awareness, I feel like the really like the most mature, the most like mature sector out there is cybersecurity. Like, I feel like every big organization, no matter no matter what industry, they all have, like internal phishing campaigns that they run because they could very easily attach like $1 or $1 amount to someone failing a phishing test. But then, when you look at like a different aspect of security, something like threat assessment or workplace violence, I think it's a little harder, or maybe, yeah, I guess it's just more difficult to quantify, like any event like that taking place. One, it's so rare. And then two, it's incredibly high cost, but hopeful. I'm pretty hopeful that in the future, we'll see many more programs when it comes to related many more programs related to workplace violence prevention that are rolled out among these organizations. That can be just as that can be just as interesting and just as comprehensive as some of the cyber and some of like the anti phishing training out there. That's just something I've been thinking about.

Jameson  19:43  
No, I completely agree. Travis, I think you and I'll I don't have I don't touch on cyber for my organization. But what I will say is, you know, to put a kudos out there. Our phishing campaign is excellent from from just the general user person act as you know, I get hit up with with phishing emails all the time that really require me to pay attention to report things as as a potential phishing attempts, and I'm proud to say I caught one. And it was they did a really nice job of hiding some of the obvious signs. But it was, it was a phishing attempt. But I have learned, as somebody who gets up and goes to bed with a security mindset, I have learned a lot about phishing, because they were so well designed, and that even when I failed, I've learned something. And I completely agree with you. I think if, if we're doing our job seriously, especially specially in the kind of workplace violence prevention efforts, we need to get more creative and more, we need to get better at what we're doing there right now. And anyone who knows me has heard this diatribe before. So I'll try and keep it brief. We don't do a great job as a security professional, doing training, when it comes to I'll just speak for like corporate America, the idea that we can prevent violence in the weekend, do you know what we mean to for our people through using sex the box theater based training, or however your organization calls it? You know, flicking through slides, and answering the right question in the shortest amount of time possible. Is does not behavior change, make and behavior change is the goal, I'm trying to take a group of people here it is not the thing, they get up and go to bed thinking about and north. But they that is maybe 28 on the list of other things they're dealing with in their day. If that. And if I can only have an hour with them, I want to make sure that our is the most productive for them. So they're getting something out of it. But ultimately, we measure that through behavior change, what is it that we're asking them to do that's different now, whether that's reacting to a crisis, maybe it's an active assailant, active shooter situation, again, incredibly rare. But if we don't prepare them for a crisis, then we can't expect them to, to, to act, the way we want the guidance that we provide. If we don't provide good guidance, we don't make that engagement experience. Quality. And I think unfortunately, the people who the the the back of the box experiment is failed, it's become a compliance. It's become a compliance exercise. Do you provide security training? Do you provide active assailant training? Yeah, and I have 98% compliance, that is great for compliance that is great for your board, or whomever leadership you're reporting to. But it doesn't mean that I've changed behavior. So it doesn't necessarily mean I'm safer than I was the second. After everybody took this training, and I got all the compliance, I have to be more creative, and how I engage people. And there's different ways to do it. And every organization and culture is different. It used to be pre COVID, that we would go out there in person, if we had the budget, and we would engage with people, people like Jameson, and people like me would go out and engage with an audience. We'd see their faces, we'd, we'd answer their questions about the organization about how they should behave, or how they should respond to an emergency in their own environment. And you could see the light bulb go on. And and that was fantastic. Both from a practitioner level and from their participation level, they took things out of these trainings we would do, and they go home and tell their spouse, you need us at your business. You need this at our church you need this year. That's the kind of engagement that I think we miss. And and again, it's time consuming. It's not necessarily inexpensive. But if we measure everything against the yardstick of behavior change, that's what we're looking for. And if that's not happening, then we need to reevaluate and find a different way.

Travis  24:02  
Yeah, the approach to how we educate people and how we do training is definitely crucial like to, to use a an example, like, I'm sure a lot of people listening, maybe if you're in the Marine Corps, the Army Air Force, maybe, you know, they do like their own training there for compliance, where you, you throw like 300 Marines in an auditorium. And then you just have presentations all day long from everything from workplace violence, to sexual assault to protect protecting information online or protecting PII. But like, you can't, you can't just kill people with PowerPoints for 10 hours a day for two days and say, All right, everyone's trained. So yeah, I think it's just so critical that really, that we find the right approach for our organization and for the teams that we're coaching and educating because that's everything that's that's going to lead to behavior change if we can Look at it as we did our annual training, so we could check the box for the year. So I I completely agree.

Jameson  25:06  

Travis  25:08  
And next, I was curious to learn. Were there any early influences that kind of got you down the path to where you are today working in violence prevention and corporate security?

Jameson  25:20  
You know, that's a harder question Is it putting on the rearview mirror a little bit and looking back, I'd say, keeping it light hearted I, I was always, I guess, predisposed to be, you know, the Boy Scout, you know, I was I was in Scouting when I was a kid. But I think personality wise, and the things that drive me, that type of attitude, that attitude of service, that attitude of, of getting involved, I think, I don't know, that just that was kind of who I was at a young age, obviously, you know, life gives you different terms and different choices as, as you grow, and I took all of them. You know, I went to college, I I did military service, I did a lot of things out of order. But I think the one true thing that sat with me throughout all of these changing directions was, I always felt that I needed to be involved that. And I know it sounds like I idealistic, and I own that, that everybody has to find a way to be involved to try and make things better than when they found a metal. You know, again, going back to the Boy Scouts, you know, the campsite, you always leave your campsite better than when you found it. That kind of early lesson that that philosophy that I that I admittedly, you know, for myself, I think is what's driven me now, I have obviously not done anything the easy way, I certainly did things out of order. I've done things. You know, I wasn't originally a security practitioner, quite frankly, I wasn't even in related fields. I was a college student who took the six year plan for a four year degree I, I was a biology major for for four and a half years of that hoping to go into the field of genetics evolving. And I had an epiphany moment where I decided that that just wasn't that wasn't our to pick the word out. It just wasn't the thing that I was passionate about. And, and so I kind of opened up my mind and open up just for a week or two and said, you know, if I wasn't doing this, what else would I do? And the short version of that conversation is I looked, and I saw a potential kind of connection there with my personality and law enforcement and spent a couple of years kind of changing direction and focusing on a law enforcement. Now, of course, I always make it harder on myself by not having a straight line between AMD, I ended up in the military kind of mid career search for kind of those same things, kind of an idealistic want to serve, gaming, you know, being an adult in his 20s, who wants to gain a lot of skills and knowledge that he didn't have, and be able to come back to the civilian world, you know, kind of with the overused and, you know, tools, a lot of tools in the toolbox and ready to start working. So that's what I did. And and my military career, I think helped shape a lot of that. My desire to serve was certainly part of that. And I continued that when I got to them ended up in law enforcement for 11 years, in a lot of different roles, all of which, you know, helped shape and form kind of the later adulthood, where I find myself now, I'd say, to get a finer point on it the last few years when I was working, when I was assigned as a Task Force officer to the FBI and JTTF of Minneapolis where I really got to look at violence through a terrorism lens and a radicalization lens. It really helps kind of look at and think about how do people end up radicalized? What is the stuff that happens before that that ramp that builds up to violence and and being involved in those cases and interviewing and, and and doing the investigative work and the intelligence work that that really does focus on that a lot more than maybe you got and local law enforcement, I think was eye opening. And that's where I started my journey with a tap where I started to going to meetings, local board or chapter meetings in Minneapolis and becoming involved in and getting part of that network as it turns out there A lot of different parallels between domestic violence, terrorism, targeted violence, mass violence, that ramp up that behavior, that pathway to violence. The factors are maybe different, but getting really good at that preventative stuff that we talked about at the beginning of our conversation today. really spoke to me. In other words, we're not just out there arresting our way out our problem, we're not out there. You know, putting handcuffs on people to solve violence, who really is it is the front piece of that, that that makes the biggest difference. It's also the hardest to quantify. It's the hardest to be tangible about. But that's kind of where that's, that's where that's where I ended up now. And I think that's, that's probably the right place. But I guess I got to the right place. It just took a long a little longer to get there.

Travis  30:55  
Yeah, and I think everyone can relate like for me, instead of biology, it was political science. Like, I was originally studying political science. And it was incredibly boring. And I was like, Alright, maybe I could just enlist in the Marine Corps. This will be more interesting if I'm a reservist, and then I'm also going to school type of thing. And also, that's so cool that you got to work with the Terrorism Task Force and get that kind of experience. That's, that's amazing, too.

Jameson  31:22  
Yeah, I think I do, I have a lot of fond memories of working at the JTTF. Again, it's a great opportunity for folks like myself, who came from local law enforcement and some taskforce work when it comes to violent crime and narcotics. If anything, it broadens your perspective. And you have to have a broad perspective, because terrorism being a global conversation, and a regional conversation and involving the intelligence community and law enforcement and mental health, and it starts to force you out of the box that maybe you built for yourself over a career in law enforcement, it's a good, it's a good thing. And it's also fascinating as somebody who has been a big fan of popular culture of movies, books, and all the other things, see how the sausage is made on the inside of the guy that see how tear is the work is done. The non glamorous stuff. It's an incredible education and putting your skills that you've learned on the street, if you will, how to interact with people, what you do well out there, interviewing people, gaining rapport investigation skills, that really brings all those in hyperfocus on a much broader scale. And I have a tremendous amount of respect for the folks that I work with. They're some of the best investigators and intelligent people I've ever worked with. I'd say that for all of law enforcement, as well. But what an amazing opportunity. I'm thankful for all the folks that that kind of pushed me up in that direction. It was a great, it was a great opportunity for me, one I'll never forget, and quite frankly, one that really did build that bridge into the private sector when it was time for me to make that jump.

Travis  33:04  
Yeah, that's awesome that it just helped broaden your experience into so many different areas. And then you also mentioned a tap. And I was hoping to ask you a little bit about the certified threat Manager Certification. Could you share a little bit about that, as far as maybe like the topics that are covered in some of the study materials and how it's helped you during your career?

Jameson  33:29  
Yeah, absolutely. So as I mentioned, I initially started in a tab in law enforcement, making those connections and listening to other speakers. And as my connection with that group grew, and my willingness to be part of that specific community and what they're working on kind of advancing towards the goal of violence prevention. I only heard through CTM, kind of over that timeframe, it was something I'd never met anyone who had that particular certification. You and I would have been familiar with a lot coming out of asis or as is and those certifications and I do those as well. But CPM was a relatively small community within a small community. But eventually I started talking to the right people kind of exploring, okay, look, is this something I'm interested in? And at the time, I said, Yeah, I said, I, I think I understand, you know, as a practitioner, let's say at the practitioner level, I understand violence and violence prevention, red flags, behaviors of concern, and that multidisciplinary approach to looking at it as not a law enforcement problem, but a multidisciplinary problem. I inherently understood that. But I needed a lot more refining. I needed a lot more education, but she put it that way. And I think the CTM program really does push you to do that because you know, this is Not a certification, that is kind of a gimme, where you can just sign up, show up and take the test because you've worked in the fields for five years, 10 years, whatever it is, and just pass, in fact that, in my opinion, is an extremely hard test that really does measure your knowledge of all the attributes and all the contributing factors, from different perspectives. So I'll give you an example. I come from a law enforcement military background, I understand violence and things like that. But I don't understand the mental health community as well. Now, I realized that training in law enforcement I left, we're getting much better at that. I don't understand social work as well, I don't understand the research that has been done on violence and violence prevention, I didn't understand kind of the tools that are research driven, that allow psychologists to analyze somebody for potential of violence. And what the CPM does is it grabs all those pieces, all of those different perspectives, of threats, and violence, and behavior, and all those contributing factors that make things so much more complicated, kind of the academic view of it kind of combined to academic, and practitioner and all of these different things, and it forces it into one conversation over, you know, in my case, six, seven months worth of study. There is nothing easy there. There are some really interesting reading, there's some fairly academic readings, which again, I enjoy, but I recognize not everyone does, but it forces you to pick up the perspectives of other of other fields and other specialties. Because in true fashion, behavioral threat assessment and management is a multi multi disciplinary approach. By definition, it's, it's using all of these different lenses to look at it as a problem and try to with the same goal, obviously, with the prevention of violence. But that CPM process is kind of like a mini college course, in some ways, you know, self driven, self study, I'm not much of a group study, or although I know some people who do do enjoy that and have done that for CPM. But it was a journey. And I'd say, it made me better, it made me understand this area a lot better, this particular focus better, and I think I'm a better advocate for it. Now. It certainly builds credibility when you're in this community. But I look at it as an opportunity to better myself and to have a broader perspective. So when somebody says, I have Jamison in the room, I can credibly speak to some of these other perspectives, even though I've never been a psychologist or psychiatrist. I've never been in mental health or social work or some of these other fields. But I understand enough about how the whole picture is put together, that I can contribute my perspective, in a positive way and actually, you know, start driving the conversation right direction, so definitely worth the pursuit. It is, it's still I think, I'm gonna I'm gonna butcher this, but I think we're probably just over 200 CPM right now. As, as of last year, or this year, I guess it hasn't turned the year yet when we're talking. But in we're starting to get the word out, this is becoming the standard. This is becoming the if you want somebody in your organization, who has that multidisciplinary, in depth understanding of violence prevention, and you know, that total picture of CTM is a great place to start. And you'll notice when they're looking when you if you if you ever review job postings and things online for these type of programs, CTM is going up more and more as a preferred, you know, kind of what do you bring to the table we'd love to have a CTF great. And I think we'll see more of that. Because I think as people spend more we talked more about getting not necessarily getting away from physical security, but starting to invest time and money in violence prevention efforts, then you'll start seeing more and more roles designed for the building and maintaining of those programs. And CPM. This is I think, strong, something strong to bring to the table for someone like that.

Travis  39:29  
Yeah, I really liked the way that you put it. Like going through the CTM study process kind of made that information that you already had, like we'll ever find it and like made it more concrete in your mind. Because it's funny, like any, like any young person working in the security industry, doing Threat Assessment investigations or working like any kind of threat, any kind of investigative research type role. Basically through osmosis, you could kind of pick up on a lot of it. A lot of important things like you'll understand, okay, if we're thinking about, like the attack cycle, where does this person's behavior fall in the attack cycle, like you'll pick up on, like the most, some of the more basic foundational things. But really, it requires, like your own self directed study, and like dedicating yourself to learning more by doing something like CTM, or any similar program. So yeah, I really do like the way that you described it. And like, for myself, I went out, like, maybe like, probably like four or five years ago, I bought every book on the A tap reading list, read like half of them, and then I ended up kind of like pausing and pursuing other things. But yeah, it does have like a really good breadth of information, like everything from reading about, like psychopaths in the workplace to like the more technical books that have like tons of academic research. So I did find it to be really interesting. And then also, for any listeners out there, that maybe, maybe you're doing college courses right now, and you have access to like your academic databases, and like all of your academic journals, if you, if you search some of these Threat Assessment topics, you'll find a lot of really interesting stuff out there, too. So I would encourage people to just check out some of those studies too, because they may find that many of them are very relatable to some of the work that they're doing today.

Jameson  41:27  
I 100%, agree, I think, you know, a tap is an organization and Communications Committee, have really gone out of their way to put more and more relevant resources on a tap website. So I always say, you know, it's throw another blatant pitch out there, go to the website, check it out, I don't know, off the top my head, I can't recall what requires membership or not to get into, but there's a lot of resources there. I know the CTM reading list, that kind of the body of knowledge they call it is there. And if there's something on that list that's important, or that that touches on something you're working on, or just a personal interest, you know, pick up the book, borrow it from somebody who has it sitting on their shelf, and maybe you'll find greater interest in and want to pursue it further. I certainly think no time is wasted and continuing learning and advancing your knowledge, especially outside of marriage, I would argue that most of the people who were the title security are doing threat management work. They don't don't call themselves threat managers. And to be clear, they don't have the title. But it doesn't mean they're not doing things. That would be threat management related. They you know, anybody in security is working on violence prevention efforts, whether they call it that or call it something else. This is just another avenue to bring, bring that community of resources that a tap provides. And that personal knowledge of that discipline to the work I'd say, I, you know, we talked about my role earlier, I am not specifically a workplace violence, security leader. I wear more or less all of the hats. But being good at workplace violence prevention does truly build a foundation for other things. If you accept that, then I should be better at proposing physical security changes or proposing alternative ways of looking at policy and procedure that that really do. I think that broad perspective will help you in other fields. So even if it's, you know, what seems a lot to tackle right now, go to a couple of meetings. I mean, that's where I started going to, you know, I went to the as is meetings locally, I went to the A tap meetings that were being held locally, and just started listening to the presentations and shaking hands with people that have the same challenges to public or private sector doesn't matter. You're a better person for it. That's what I that's what I truly believe. So even if you're in CTM is not for you, that community. And it doesn't have to be all workplace violence. It just happens that that? Oh, it's kind of it's a great, great opportunity for anybody in the industry. Make all those connections to do that. I 100% believe that I think every any success I could point to for myself, is derived from those kinds of relationships, low kinds of organizations, and specifically a tap in my case. So yeah, do it. And if you ever want to talk to me or reach out online to me about CTM or have questions about CTM there's plenty of stuff on the website. But definitely, definitely look into it and do a little either in the Travis, you know, grab a couple of the books, read through it, something grabs you and you're like, hey, I think I can get through one more. Do it. You're on your own time.

Travis  44:46  
Yeah, and also so many of those resources are free online, maybe not like the body knowledge ones, but there's so many. There's so many that are published publicly by public organizations. So yeah, definitely go check. Got the reading list and at least get started with some of the free readings. And, and I really do like your point because I feel like in every security role I've ever had from being a security guard at Disneyland to doing residential security for high net worth people to the role that I'm in today in physical security. I feel like the ideas from a lot of the a tap readings, they apply broadly across all these different functions, because you're always going to have situations involving stalking, or workplace violence or inappropriate pursuers or just like tension in the workplace among people or domestic violence, like these are things that affect every organization. And you're going to come in contact with these topics with these situations, no matter where you go. So yeah, I, I couldn't agree with you more. Absolutely. So continuing on, I wanted to ask you, like, what advice would you have for aspiring practitioners out there who are maybe they're in like their early 20s. And their goal is to work in workplace violence prevention or similar security roles? Like what kind of advice would you share with some of these younger professionals?

Jameson  46:17  
No, I think that's a really good question. And I wish to some extent, I wish somebody had had told me some of these things back in the day. But that's, that's part of growing up and then becoming an adult and taking the various paths. I think there's a couple of things I'd point to one, I don't think learning is ever finished. I know the phrase lifelong learner can be overused. But that's how I look at the things and you've probably heard it in this conversation, perhaps, you know, I have I have certifications. And I don't say that to be cocky, I will tell you, the reason I do is because I like to challenge myself, I like to pick up a new book, challenge myself, take the test, do that apply that learning. That's part of me, that's part of Jameson and how I get up in the morning. Having that lifelong passion for learning and curiosity is what drives drives me and drives kind of the career path I've been on. I don't think, you know, I'll be pushing 50 here soon, I don't think that I will ever stop learning or picking up books, to challenge myself and do stuff because it's just become part of who I am, I would always recommend that. And I'd say, to the extent that people told me to do that in my 20s, I may have blown it off. Because I just didn't have time or busy or wasn't that important. But I think you can never be finished in in honing that blade, I don't think you can ever be finished learning something else. And even if it's something out of your wheelhouse, you know, I often laughed, I heard people say, you know, man, I got somebody suggested I take a Microsoft Excel course for an hour. And I just thought I'd rather I'd rather just. I, I probably was one of those people too. It's not a security topic. But I tell you what, as a security leader, I have to use excel at a level that I'm not comfortable with right now. And I've, I've, I've reached out to people in my past, Adam, if you ever hear this, he knows who he is, and others that really master that. And when you have people who know how to do those things, you bring them in, you bring them in, and you hold on to them and say you're my resource that I don't think you can ever be done with that. As far as security, I think I just, you know, when I when I got into, for example, when I worked in health care for several years, global health care, you know, there's certain areas that we would focus in because it was relevant to the business and to our employee population at risk. I'm in transportation, logistics and retail to some extent now. It's a different set of skills. So the first thing I do is go out and say, Who has ever written a book about the carrying transportation warehouse and logistics, because it wasn't a field that I was as familiar with. So I went and sought that out. I you know, it's things like that, and also the networking. I when I go to a conference now whether it's a tap or otherwise, I love connecting with folks that are like, they're in the same industry who already have a more mature model than yours. And you say, Look, I'd love to buy you a beer. Let's go have a beer. Tell me. Tell me how you got to where you're at from a couple of years ago because I have the same journey. And what I found is, is that networking piece has been unbelievably fruitful. Bills, networking things. The folks that I've relied on early in my career, have often come back to me and said Jameson 10 years ago, you told me about this I'm Eric, I told you about how to get into the security industry, and which, for me was clearly valuable. And now they're coming back 10 years later, and years later and saying, I see you've worked on this project for a couple of years, let's get a beer. Because this is something I'm off is asking me to work on workplace violence prevention efforts, or build a threat management program. Let's sit down and chat about that. I love that. I think that's another piece that I that I, that I push for young professionals to that networking aspect, there's not enough focus put on that. And I'll even double down when it comes to the law enforcement community, which, where I came from. They're very hesitant, hopefully, about social media about networking, to some extent about conferences, and some of these other things, because it can be a very insular is a negative word. But you know, law enforcement people revolve, or spend their time on law enforcement people. And when you get outside of that, if you're somebody who's transitioning from law enforcement into corporate security, you have to break that pattern. Because that networking is what creates success, that networking is what gets you that first bridge and the private sector. And quite frankly, once you're in and you're being asked to solve really big problems, and there's only one of you, that network is where you're going to learn. Kind of, okay, this is this is the right way to go. So I certainly double down on that building that relationship building lends credibility. Always Learning those are those are several that I put out there, right, just off the top of my head.

Travis  51:35  
Yeah, you mentioned networking. It's funny, like I remember, back in the day, one of the very early security roles I had the team that I was on, essentially no one on the team did any networking. And it was almost like a mini cult, we're like insulated, only communicating with each other, really not reaching out to other similar teams, similar organizations to learn about, like their best practices, the challenges that they're facing. And I remember once I left that organization, and I started getting more involved in the community on LinkedIn with asis with going to the Los Angeles a tap chapter. I remember once I started doing that, I just kind of like had an epiphany, like, Why did I never do this before, this is so much, this is so helpful for my career for potential opportunities. And then all of these learning opportunities where I can help others and others can help me and share a lot of their experience so that I could learn from their mistakes and the challenges of their organization. So yeah, I think networking is super critical. And if you're a young, a young person, definitely get out there and participate more in some of these communities. Because you have so much to gain for helping others and then getting help from others in the community out there.

Jameson  52:54  
I can't agree, I can't agree more that your advice, I'll give you a couple examples. So in if we just narrow it down to a tap and that that network very, it's a smaller network. But growing, it's not it doesn't have the footprint of an asis. But it has a very strong, very passionate group that I am just privileged and honored to be a part of, and I'll scream that for many rooftops. I have had real world significant threats to our organization, our people like actual impending violence, we're we're assessing it super high risk, it's coming to our doorstep, what are we going to do about it? If it was not for the a tap network and my ability to go on our workplace, a tech community and say, Hey, I need a resource resource in Phoenix, I need a resource in Colorado, we would have been so out of luck when it comes to solving this problem and preventing actual violence. Those networks have real consequences. There are people out there who have had the same problems as you who have solved them, who have matured their programs, graphs, who have built programs, they're already out there. You don't have to invent you don't have to reinvent the wheel, there are people out there are more than willing to participate and jump on and have that journey with you. You just have to know who they are. You just have to reach out and honestly, that's what's really strong about the tech community. Every time I reached out as a new practitioner, hey, this is famous and I am really at a loss. I need somebody locally in this particular area because I've got something that's really significantly concerning and I need help with it. And you can get a response from Dr. Alleria, former ATEP president or somebody within 3040 seconds to say I absolutely no fellow a tapper down in that county. Let me get you an intro email to it. I like the power of that network in real world application not just you know, hey, it's nice to know you. Let's have a beer. Love that by the way. But being able to reach out and get real concrete help on things is if I can do nothing else, I think That would be the one thing that I'd focus on for sure.

Travis  55:04  
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I know we're up against time. Can we do one more question before we wrap things up? Absolutely. All right, sweet. So next, as a follow up to that, I was curious to ask you, are there any, like, Are there any competencies or any skill areas that you think are more important than others when it comes to working in workplace violence prevention or similar roles?

Jameson  55:33  
No, that's, that's a harder question. So I'd say the application of technology is something that I've always kept an eye to. Partly because as we we've come out of COVID, we've seen the challenges of doing face to face we've got a distributed workforce, there's a lot more technology involved now than there was before. So I'd say if anything, continually to reach out and to look at what what is happening in technology right now, that can accomplish your goal. And I'll give you one specific when we had challenges in reference to doing some of that training I talked about for getting out there and engaging with the audience and getting that feedback. When that couldn't happen anymore. It didn't stop being a need. It didn't stop being something that needed to be done, we had to find new, new and innovative ways to engage with our audience, our employees. We found it through a couple of different things, obviously distance, and connecting virtually as streaming was one of them. We also found it through VR, where we developed an in house VR program with external specialists, a vendor that works in enterprise VR. And we tried to look at how do we get that behavior change I talked about earlier, through technology. And so to answer your question more directly, I really do enjoy keeping my eye out for how does technology touch security or touch workplace violence? How can we leverage that to make our people safer and more prepared for a crisis, whatever it is, whether it's intelligence gathering, screenings for red flag behaviors, the stuff that Carnegie is working on and insider threat, there's so much overlap between insider threat, and that that research was going on, and workplace violence because a lot of the precursors, a lot of the red flags do overlap to a point before they diverge. So understanding insider threat and some of that stuff, the separation between cyber and physical, when it comes to insider threat, and workplace violence is fascinating. So those are just a couple of the ideas that I'd say keep an eye on because they're we're starting to see things like VR, for screening people. For example, I have a very good friend who's working on a project now, that using VR for behavioral indicators, to be able to see suspicious behaviors in real world situations using AI and using real human behaviors, AI generated behaviors, to start training and teaching people to be observant in crowds or in places with with a heavy crowd that has a real tangible effect, that behavior is hard to teach. Especially if you're having trouble getting people in a room, or they're distributed across the country, or you have so many employees that you can't touch each and every one of them with a half day course. I think VR is a change maker. That's my personal opinion. I obviously there's other technologies that are that are out there. So I'd say always keep an eye on what's going on in the technology field as it potentially overlapped. And there's some use cases that maybe you just figure out for yourself, like I see that done in this industry. Oh, I wonder if that could work for a security context or workplace violence context. I'd argue Jamison Ritter would argue there's a ton of potential out there and whatever field you're working in to really leverage technology. So being technology savvy, curious to learn about other things. Like, again, this is all kind of the same conversation, but keep on that technology stuff. I think that's obviously the way to go. Yeah,

Travis  59:21  
I really liked that outlook, like VR could be great for training. And then also when I think about some of the work that I do today, for example, like doing physical security risk assessments, I think we're not that far off from a day where I'm putting on an Oculus headset, and I'm doing a virtual walkthrough of a building that's in another state. I think that's very much going to happen in the near future. And then also, that's, that's just like another great area where young people can add a lot of value. It's like since young people are they're kind of like digital natives. They've just always been immersed in technology. That's like an that's like a big value add they could bring to their organizations, like maybe they're working with an older cohort that's not so much interested, this can be a big, a big selling point for them.

Jameson  1:00:10  
I completely agree. I mean, I'll give you one example I have a neighbor, whose son went, went down to Florida for college to learn game design is a video game, that generation, we're up gamers, learning, the Unreal Engine and some of these other things that Jameis Ritter couldn't do. But when I talk about the VR program, that is those are the machines that drive the immersive VR experience. Those are the people that you're going to need to bring in to develop those platform. They have that knowledge, I know, I don't like connecting with somebody 3040 years younger, whatever it is, who has that passion as that, bring them in and say, look, I think that technology is has some potential overlap. Let's sit and chat about it. How can how can I apply what you know, to what I do? And the folks that are doing that? Well, right now we're the ones doing the startups that are doing these new innovative companies and programs that touch on security or other industries that are going to just go through the roof once they catch hold?

Travis  1:01:18  
Yeah, I definitely see technology continuing to play a bigger role. And let's see. So as we wrap things up today, were there any other topics or any other ideas that you wanted to share? Before we wrap things up?

Jameson  1:01:33  
You know, I would just I would just finish. Obviously, we've spoken a lot today, in this conversation about a tap in that network. And and if it hasn't been come clear, by now, over the last hour or so, I am just an absolute huge proponent if you're in this field, and I don't just mean threat management, workplace violence, but if you're in the security industry, or your role touches on those topics, you are in threat damage, whether you're doing the work or not, you're it's touching you, it's touching your organization. So get involved. I say this, do it my you know, faith based organizations will look and you're doing threat management, you're doing it every day, you're dealing with people in crisis, you're dealing with people that are spiraling in some ways, and they're coming into looking for help. If you believe that, and if you believe that you're here to help, and this type of work, this type of organization, this type of network, is 100% applicable to what you do and and wants to help. And and we think I think I would say a tap believes that. It's this is the right perspective when it comes to finding the answer toward targeted violence. And I've said it and I know I'm not the first one to say use this phrase, but I see a tab and threat management as a inoculation towards violence. This is what we do to prepare ourselves in advance to prevent violence. And if we can do that, well, we really can make a difference, whether that's schools, whether that's companies, churches, synagogues, whatever, this is the answer. And I truly do believe that and I know that sounds simplistic, but check it out for yourself, learn more about it, come to a meeting, introduce yourself to somebody you belong to a tap and ask questions, and please come out and join us.

Travis  1:03:26  
Yeah, and I couldn't agree more. I've been to a number of chapter level meetings and some of the annual shows that they have in Anaheim. And they always have an incredible list of speakers that are talking about topics that are highly relevant for your organization. And many of them too are like a, like lessons learned after a big event. And there's just so much that you could take away from those speakers. So yeah, I couldn't agree more. And they're giving. They're giving people the right tools that they need to educate others in their organization, so that, like the everyday person in your organization can help recognize those red flags and then prevent violence. So I couldn't agree more.

Jameson  1:04:06  
So that's my, that's my shameless sales pitch. Feel free to share that perspective. But I'm always I'm always on the rooftop screaming this very thing. So I appreciate you giving me another platform to do it here.

Travis  1:04:22  
Of course, and Jamison, thank you very much for joining me today. We covered some really interesting topics, everything from why you need to be involved in networking and get involved in the community, no matter what aspect of security you're involved in. We talked about focusing on the human element in security when it comes to your training when it comes to designing your programs. And then we talked about so much more. So, Jameson, I really appreciate it. And also we'll be sure to include a number of links to resources that we talked about today, and then probably some other ones that are bug You Jameson about offline. So yeah, I really appreciate your time. Jameson.

Jameson  1:05:06  
Great. Thanks for having me. Really appreciate it.

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